Public Accounts Committee on Jan. 28th, 2021

[Maxime Blanchette-Joncas, Bloc, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

My question is for Ms. Kelly.

Good morning, Ms. Kelly. Thank you for being here today.

In your opening address, you said that culture change does not happen overnight. I fully agree with you.

However, in 2005, 32% of Correctional Service Canada employees said that they had already been subject to harassment from superiors over the two previous years. At the time, this was nearly twice as high as the average for the public service, which stood at 17%.

According to the data we now have, things are still rather troubling, indeed devastating. At Correctional Service Canada, according to the Auditor General's report, almost three out of four employees had serious concerns about the organizational culture. Half were also afraid of reprisal if they were to file a complaint when an employee was a victim of harassment, discrimination or violence from another employee or a manager.

Ms. Kelly, This organizational culture appears to have spread in several respects in recent years. I am of course referring to the 2016 incident, in respect of which the Office of the Public Sector Integrity Commissioner of Canada launched an investigation into the behaviour of Ms. Brigitte de Blois, the director of the Offender Redress Division between 2010 and 2015. This rather scathing report said that there had been a climate of terror there for years. At the time the facts were reported in February 2017, the Correctional Service Canada Deputy Commissioner, Mr. Motiuk, was investigated separately because evidence had been presented. However, no action had been taken with respect to the information alleged against Ms. de Blois. At the time, you were in an acting position. Disciplinary measures were afterwards taken against Ms. de Blois and Mr. Motiuk.

Today, my question is very simple. I'm trying to understand the situation, which has persisted for several years. The facts are shocking. Why is harassment still considered an occupational hazard at Correctional Service Canada?

[Anne Kelly]

We are, of course, working hard on this issue.

As I mentioned, in 2019 and 2020, there was a decrease in the number of harassment complaints. It's something we discuss on a regular basis.

To address fear of reprisal, we set up a whistleblowing site and a generic email people could use to tell us about their worries and concerns. We also included tough language in our performance assessments for all supervisors, managers and senior managers. As for civility and respect, we launched an annual campaign to promote a respectful workplace. We are also preparing an annual report on the working climate, which includes a database to track whether we are making progress over the years.

We are working extremely hard on the culture. We now have an annual strategy that is truly exhaustive. We will also be checking on the culture at Correctional Service Canada. Many initiatives have been launched.

[Maxime Blanchette-Joncas, Bloc, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

Thank you, Ms. Kelly.

I'm going to be more specific. Organizational culture is top down. This means that senior managers motivate people in the organization.

At the time, when we had evidence of negligence and inaction in the behaviour of Ms. de Blois and Mr. Motiuk, it had been impossible to obtain details about sanctions. They kept their respective jobs as director and deputy commissioner.

They encouraged a reign of terror. This kind of organizational climate starts at the top and does not promote change.

Can you confirm that there are no problems of this kind at the moment in senior management at correctional service Canada?

From 2010 to 2015, a five-year period, we were able to observe Ms. de Blois' inappropriate behaviour.

[Anne Kelly]

I can confirm it.

In connection with the case that you have mentioned, as the Commissioner, I myself met all of the employees in that division. I spoke to them and they told me how they felt about it.

It's something we talk about a lot in the organization. It's an item on every agenda. My senior managers and my executive committee know what I expect of them. I can confirm that they are taking the required action when problems are raised.

[Maxime Blanchette-Joncas, Bloc, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

Ms. Kelly, With respect to required action, was Ms. de Blois given any training in organizational culture? Were there any changes?

We know that she was sanctioned for her behaviour. However, people are afterwards required to take training to acquire a variety of skills to ensure that the organization's culture remains favourable and positive.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly Block]

You have time for a very short answer, Ms. Kelly.

[Anne Kelly]

We have in fact introduced compulsory courses to promote a healthy environment and to prevent workplace violence.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly Block]

Thank you so much.

We will now go to Mr. Green for six minutes.

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Picking up on MP Blanchette-Joncas and bringing back MP Fergus's question, my question, through you, Chair, to Commissioner Kelly is this: Are you opening up the ability for past complainants to pursue, in a more healthy environment, a more fulsome complaints process, or is there a statute of limitations that is going to say that what's in the past is in the past?

[Anne Kelly]

We have had people come forward. Obviously, we've reassessed the complaints. Again, there's lots of discussion going on in the organization.

One of the questions was around restorative actions. I think Mr. Fergus was talking about that. That's very important. Whenever there's a conflict, whether it's between employees or between the employee and the manager, it impacts the whole work area. Once lines are drawn in the sand, it becomes really messy, as far as I'm concerned.

We use the office of conflict resolution very quickly to work with the impacted area. We do workplace surveys. We have facilitators to work with the area. We have mandated that senior management meet with the staff, because we want to restore the whole workplace. It's not just the individuals.

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

I would agree. In fact, I wish we had that same outlook in our treatment of inmates and incarcerated people in this legal system. The results of this report demonstrate a deeply concerning workplace culture that does not adequately address harassment and discrimination that are committed between employees.

Since violence between employees has not been addressed, what frameworks are put in place to address and prevent harassment and discrimination from employees towards people who are incarcerated?

[Anne Kelly]

As I say often—I say it in graduation ceremonies—there's no greater responsibility than having the care and custody of other human beings. That's what they are—human beings.

I repeatedly say to all staff, and I have town halls with the staff, that they have to be role models. It's a challenging population. They are in our institutions because, obviously, they committed crimes. Many of them are impulsive. Many have mental health issues. As people who work with this population, we absolutely have to be role models. This is something I stress repeatedly with my regional deputy commissioners as well.

I believe that although we're working on the culture, it's not just for staff. It's not only about how we deal with staff with staff or staff with managers; it's also staff with offenders.

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

I want to acknowledge that 37 years is an incredible service to the country. Certainly the job that your members have to provide as a public service to communities is a very complex one that requires a tremendous amount of skills, both hard and soft.

But given your time in the corporation and your clear success in rising to a commissioner, when the previous speaker talked about the fact that this hadn't been flagged as a corporate risk, can we assume that if harassment had been included as a corporate risk 10 years earlier, some of the risk mitigation measures would have been already taken, and some of these incidents of harassment would not have occurred?

[Anne Kelly]

I'm not sure whether or not they would have occurred, but definitely it's something that we're focusing on. Harassment, discrimination, systemic racism, workplace violence, these are all things that there's zero tolerance for—

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Commissioner Kelly, I have to share with you that I am challenged in the language of public service around acknowledging these systemic issues, but not necessarily having accountability.

It's alarming for me that if we can't make that assumption that flagging them as a corporate risk and taking action would have mitigated them, then what would give us the assurance from this audit, moving forward, that the steps that you're going to take would have an impact on changing the culture in a future tense?

[Anne Kelly]

It's a corporate priority, so it's definitely flagged and it's something that we are working on, absolutely.

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

In your opinion, why weren't they identified and included in CSC's corporate risk documents earlier? This is the basic question. Then I think the assumption is that had they been included, based on what you've just described, we would have been in a better place, and yet that wasn't your response.

[Anne Kelly]

Included in our corporate risk priorities?

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Correct.

[Anne Kelly]

Okay....

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Are you not understanding the question?

I'll be clear that if the public service employee survey between 2017 and 2018 had not formally stated in its corporate risk documents that there had been a serious issue of harassment, that leads me to say that you only addressed it after people got caught, and that's a problem.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly Block]

Thank you very much, Mr. Green.

I recognize that wasn't a question but an observation, and your time is up.

We will now move to the next round of questioning for five minutes.

Mr. Webber.

[Len Webber, Conservative, Calgary Confederation, AB]

I'm going to rely on some questions from the Library of Parliament to ask a question.

According to the Auditor General, actions taken to restore harmonious working relationships after an investigation into a harassment complaint must focus not only on the people directly involved but also the team as a whole.

To both the CBSA and the CSC, how will you ensure that restorative measures include the whole team and not only the people affected by the complaint?

I apologize if this was asked before. I didn't realize I was up again.

Ms. Kelly.

[Anne Kelly]

Okay, and I think I just spoke to that in terms of—

[Len Webber, Conservative, Calgary Confederation, AB]

Okay, I apologize.