Public Accounts Committee on Sept. 25th, 2024

[Lysane Bolduc]

Okay. However, I'm not sure where you want me to pick up from.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Just the last 10 or 20 seconds.

[Lysane Bolduc]

Sorry. I forgot what I was explaining to Ms. Sinclair‑Desgagné.

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

I could remind her, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Please be brief.

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

We were talking about the levels between you and Ms. Daly. You said that you informed her direct manager, who is at the PG‑06 level.

[Lysane Bolduc]

Yes. That's right.

I learned in March, a few minutes after Ms. Daly herself, that she was the focus of a PSPC internal investigation. I think that it was March 12. At that point, I had to inform her manager, since this affected Ms. Daly's workload and her manager had to take measures.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you.

Mr. Desjarlais, you have the floor for two and a half minutes, please.

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I want to follow up on a piece of evidence that was submitted in testimony by Ms. Daly regarding TBIPS.

How familiar are you with TBIPS? Can you describe in 20 seconds or less what your knowledge of TBIPS is?

[Lysane Bolduc]

My knowledge of TBIPS is relatively new. In my new role as director general of the professional services transformative solutions sector, TBIPS is one of seven methods of supply that are mandatory for other government departments to use when they want to access professional services. TBIPS specifically stands for task-based informatics professional services. It is access to professional services in the area of information technology on a task-based basis as opposed to a solution-based basis.

That's what I know about TBIPS, and I know that's the method that was used.

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

Thanks for that. That's my understanding of TBIPS as well.

I would submit that Ms. Daly would largely agree with your statement and your summary, as she described TBIPS as where:

...team members pre-qualify contractors and companies like GC Strategies and place them into the government-wide purchasing catalogue. No manager, DG or minister in the federal government is permitted to buy IT pro services from any other source but this TBIPS-designed catalogue. There may be exceptions unknown to me.

That was her understanding of the program. Is that a fair assumption that you would agree with?

[Lysane Bolduc]

That is correct. However, these are called supply arrangements—

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

How do you get on the list?

[Lysane Bolduc]

There is a periodic refresh of all those methods of supply; it's quarterly. Essentially, to get on the list, you propose your services on a quarterly basis.

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

Are those reviewed at all? How did GC Strategies, this two-person company, get access to such a significant catalogue that makes mandatory government-wide purchasing?

[Lysane Bolduc]

There are many suppliers on the list in that catalogue, and when a specific need arises from a government department, what happens is that, from that list, a request for proposals is made—

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

How does someone get on the list? That's part of the problem this committee is seized with, or at least I am, because if you become pre-qualified for this catalogue and you're a two-person company and you start getting millions of dollars' worth of contracts and nobody reviews it, then all of a sudden you're made a millionaire and you're taking money out of the public service. That's my perception of what took place.

Are there any recommendations you would make in regard to the TBIPS program that could close this loophole that allows two-person companies like GC Strategies to continue to siphon public dollars?

[Lysane Bolduc]

In fact, many recommendations were made by both the Auditor General of Canada and the procurement ombud. We're acting on them all. They pertain to methods of supply such as this one that you have described.

One of the recommendations is to shift from task-based types of methods of supply to solutions-based methods of supply. What does that mean? It means that, up front, the scope or the requirement is very well defined to seek vendors.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you very much.

I will now turn to Mr. Genuis.

You have the floor for five minutes, please.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Thank you very much, Chair.

Chair, part of the arrive scam scandal is that we are seeing this intense and bitter conflict between senior public servants and senior officials accusing each other of lying, falsifying evidence and even faking major illnesses. We have a similar dynamic today, where we have witnesses whose testimony conflicts with the statements of Ms. Daly.

I want to just observe that, whoever you find more convincing, the fact of this intense conflict within the ranks of the senior public service is a major problem. It's a problem that this division exists, that people can't trust each other, that someone is lying and that whoever's responsible is not owning up to the problem.

We have heard testimony along the way that Minister Mendicino wanted someone's “head on a platter” over the arrive scam scandal. This is obviously a massive boondoggle. The investigations at committee had started, and the implications of the testimony we heard about wanting someone's head on a platter is that Minister Mendicino was looking for a fall person: someone to carry the blame and someone within the public service to take responsibility for the disastrous ArriveCAN procurement. He wanted to hold someone else responsible.

It seems to me that, just looking at the timelines, there really was an emergence and an intensification of conflict among senior public servants after this directive from Minister Mendicino came down—an informal directive, after he said that he wanted someone's head on a platter.

I would just observe as well that we have seen the conflict between what you might describe as the Minh Doan faction and the MacDonald-Utano faction. I think this plays into the questioning of Diane Daly and her allegation that she was supposed to say certain things about who was responsible, and she didn't say the things she was expected to, and, therefore, people went after her.

I want to ask a few questions about this. When did you first decide to interview Ms. Daly? When did you reach out to her and say, “We need to talk about this?”

[Lysane Bolduc]

Thank you very much for the question.

I reached out to Ms. Daly, as I said earlier, on December 14, after I was asked to ask her to co-operate with the investigation.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Thank you.

I just want to observe that this was after the MacDonald-Utano testimony, where they basically came out with very strong criticisms of Minh Doan and other senior public servants. You were asked to interview Ms. Daly after Mr. Utano and Mr. MacDonald had already kind of separated themselves from the narrative being advanced by other officials.

Can you confirm that during her hearing with you, Ms. Daly accused Minh Doan of lying and said that Minh Doan was responsible for the decision to choose GC Strategies?

[Lysane Bolduc]

Thank you very much for the question.

No, I cannot remember that. It was not an interview. This was, in fact, a meeting. I never interviewed Ms. Daly. I was not and I am not part of either investigation—not that of CBSA, nor that of PSPC.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

We have it in the transcript that Ms. Daly did say that Minh Doan had lied. She did say that he was responsible for the decision to choose GC Strategies.

She further said that Minh Doan had ruled out Deloitte as an option for GC Strategies because of issues with CARM. That is consistent with testimony that was given by Mr. MacDonald and Mr. Utano, although it contradicts testimony given by Minh Doan and the leadership of CBSA.

I don't know if you can confirm that or not, but that's in the transcript that we received.

[Lysane Bolduc]

Thank you very much for the question.

No, I cannot confirm that. I don't recall this. I have not heard the transcript nor read the transcript, so I don't recall that.