Public Accounts Committee on Oct. 21st, 2024

[Valerie Bradford, Liberal, Kitchener South—Hespeler, ON]

Okay.

We've learned that SDTC has already implemented 11 of the Auditor General's 12 recommendations. They're in the process of implementing the final one, which is to review the projects from an eligibility and conflict of interest standpoint. SDTC has sought advice from multiple third party firms as part of this process. They've been clear that any wrongdoing or fraud on the part of a company would lead to the recouping of funds.

I'm wondering if you have any comments or thoughts on this process.

[Konrad von Finckenstein]

I think indeed there should be a recoupment of funds if fraud or a breach of the act has been involved, but that's not my remit. That falls really under the Public Sector Integrity Commissioner. My sole duty is to make sure that people do not get into conflict—or, if they have a conflict, that they manage it in such a way that they are in compliance with the act—and obviously to investigate if there should be alleged breaches.

[Valerie Bradford, Liberal, Kitchener South—Hespeler, ON]

During your last appearance before this committee, one of my colleagues filled you in on a letter from the RCMP commissioner to the House clerk about the Conservative House motion adopted on June 10, 2024. With this letter, the RCMP commissioner sounded the alarm, saying that this House order is interfering in operational and police independence. The Auditor General has also come out saying that this motion would compromise her independence, and she has refused to abide by it.

You previously stated just how vital independence is to the functioning of offices such as yours and that of the AG, and that your roles and continued credibility are functions of this independence.

Do you have any further comments to make on this?

[Konrad von Finckenstein]

As I said before in another committee, we have two different principles here, which are very difficult to reconcile.

One of them is the principle of independence, confidentiality, etc.

The other one is this: When you do a prosecution, bring people before court and try to convict them, you have to show that the evidence you obtained is from a clean source of evidence, that it is evidence that is credible and was obtained legitimately. Now, in this case, when documents were forced to be disclosed to the RCMP.... They didn't have a warrant to use. Undoubtedly, in a prosecution, there will be some objections raised. Somebody will say, “No, there was a violation of the Charter of Rights, because these documents weren't obtained through a warrant.”

The court will then have to decide how you reconcile these two principles—the principle of Parliament being supreme and able to order whatever it wants and the principle of a Charter of Rights that protects citizens against unlawful conduct by authorities.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you.

That is the time, I'm afraid, Ms. Bradford.

Ms. Sinclair‑Desgagné, you now have the floor for six minutes.

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

Commissioner, thank you for being here. I would also like to thank Mr. Aquilino.

Can you tell us briefly how your process works? For example, how do you decide who to investigate?

In the case of Sustainable Development Technology Canada, you prepared reports on Ms. Verschuren and Mr. Ouimet. What about the other board members? How does the office of the Commissioner select individuals? Does it do so only at the request of members of Parliament, or can it decide on its own?

[Konrad von Finckenstein]

There are two possibilities. First, a member of Parliament can ask me to look into something. In that case, I conduct an investigation if I think there are grounds to do so.

Second, I have the power to initiate an investigation on my own, for example after hearing or seeing things in the media or if someone has given me information.

Mr. Aquilino, what are the relevant sections of the Conflict of Interest Act?

[Michael Aquilino]

Sections 44 and 45.

[Konrad von Finckenstein]

Subsection 45(1) states: “If the Commissioner has reason to believe that a public office holder or former public office holder has contravened this Act, the Commissioner may examine the matter on his or her own initiative”.

In other words, I have to decide whether there are grounds to believe that an individual has contravened the act.

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

Thank you.

[Konrad von Finckenstein]

That's the test I have to apply every time, before starting an investigation.

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

Are you investigating other board members who were involved in the Sustainable Development Technology Canada affair?

[Konrad von Finckenstein]

As I said to your colleague, I only have the authority to identify conflicts of interest, which the Auditor General has already done through her report. I did a special examination of Ms. Verschuren and Mr. Ouimet. The other members are quite involved in various conflicts of interest, but the Auditor General has already laid that out in a report. I don't see what an investigation by my office could add to the Auditor General's report.

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

It's just for the simple reason that you look specifically at conflicts of interest.

The Auditor General, on the other hand, looks at how funds are managed and whether the way funds are managed corresponds to the original contribution clauses. It's a totally different mandate from yours. It would be relevant, and even important, I think, that you look specifically at conflicts of interest and also investigate other board members, because, in this case, I believe many of them have potential conflicts of interest.

Can you only investigate individuals appointed by the Governor in Council, or can you also investigate public servants?

[Konrad von Finckenstein]

I have no authority over members of the public service.

In the case of SDTC, I can only investigate board members who are appointed by the Governor in Council. Eight of those members were not appointed by the Governor in Council, so I can't touch their cases. I investigated two of the other seven directors, and I made my report.

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

So you don't intend to report on the other members.

[Konrad von Finckenstein]

As I mentioned before, I don't see what else we could add to the information that already exists. We know there were conflicts of interest. That was demonstrated by the Auditor General. The consequences of those conflicts of interest do not fall under my mandate, that is to say whether someone got rich, whether there was fraud, or any other matter of that kind.

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

The Auditor General didn't go that far. She cited some cases of conflict of interest. She mentioned that there were cases of apparent conflict of interest.

However, an investigation would be relevant. Again, in good faith, I think other members of the board in a conflict of interest have been identified. It would therefore be relevant to know whether they personally received public funds through their businesses. I think that's one of your key functions.

Your investigations of the two individuals have been very helpful. We are using them in committee. Others could also be useful to us, particularly if they concern some of the other board members. We have the list of 90 cases of conflict of interest.

Some names, like Andrée‑Lise Méthot, come up very often on this list. In her case, given the allegations we're hearing, would it not be relevant and, above all, necessary that the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner be able to tell us what really happened, based on what former board members are reporting, of course, but in a more detailed manner?

It's not the Auditor General's role to further investigate conflicts of interest. She cited some of them, but then the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner can really dig in and shed light on these issues.

[Konrad von Finckenstein]

First, Andrée‑Lise Méthot was not appointed by the Governor in Council.

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

Okay.

[Konrad von Finckenstein]

So I can't—

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

So you can't do that.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Ms. Sinclair‑Desgagné, I'm going to let the commissioner finish his answer, because your speaking time is up.

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

Okay.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Mr. von Finckenstein, you have the floor.