Evidence of meeting #151 for Public Accounts in the 44th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was sdtc.
A video is available from Parliament.
Bloc
Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné Bloc Terrebonne, QC
I didn't hear your last sentence. There was noise. Can you repeat it, please?
Principal, InnovAction Advisory Services Inc., As an Individual
Sure. I'll say two things. One is that it only happened at the end of the appointment process, so that was in late June. The second thing is that Leah Lawrence, as far as I know, because she rarely talked to me about other issues related to the SDTC, never tried to reach out to me about these issues.
Bloc
Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné Bloc Terrebonne, QC
Ms. Verschuren was indeed appointed very quickly. We've heard that from a number of witnesses. That said, I want to emphasize that Ms. Lawrence told us repeatedly that she tried to warn of potential conflicts of interest with respect to Ms. Verschuren's candidacy.
You're telling me that you were not aware. It would seem Ms. Lawrence told other people in the department about it, but didn't tell you. That's what I'm getting here. She never told you she had concerns about Ms. Verschuren's candidacy for chair of the board of Sustainable Development Technology Canada.
Principal, InnovAction Advisory Services Inc., As an Individual
Not as far as I can remember.
Principal, InnovAction Advisory Services Inc., As an Individual
As I said, I think I can count on my fingers the times I talked to her at SDTC, and they were actually around 2015-16.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative John Williamson
Thank you, Mr. Knubley.
We turn again to Ms. Mathyssen.
You have the floor for two and a half minutes, please.
Principal, InnovAction Advisory Services Inc., As an Individual
I'm not hearing you, Chair.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative John Williamson
Could you not hear me again? I'm glad you hear at least the members here, so that's all that matters.
Principal, InnovAction Advisory Services Inc., As an Individual
Okay, I'm glad to hear that, too.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative John Williamson
Yes, so you're hearing the right people.
Ms. Mathyssen, you have the floor for two and a half minutes.
NDP
Lindsay Mathyssen NDP London—Fanshawe, ON
Thank you.
Just to be clear, from the questions just asked, you didn't hear directly from CEO Leah Lawrence about her concerns around the conflict of interest. However, Leah Lawrence said that she spoke to the assistant deputy minister, Andrew Noseworthy, and informed him about the specific issues. You didn't hear from Andrew Noseworthy about her concerns. That information did not go up the chain to you.
Principal, InnovAction Advisory Services Inc., As an Individual
I think the answer is yes. I think what I also need to say, though, is that Andrew Noseworthy and I discussed the fact that Ms. Verschuren had gone to the Ethics Commissioner.
NDP
Lindsay Mathyssen NDP London—Fanshawe, ON
Wouldn't you have expected...? You said before that often ADMs were not put in these positions, but you ran things a bit differently and you decided to put ADMs on all of these boards just so you knew what was going on. Wasn't it your expectation that they would report anything going on up the chain, including CEO Lawrence's reservations or concerns about the appointment of Ms. Verschuren?
Principal, InnovAction Advisory Services Inc., As an Individual
I'll say two things, and I will try to keep it brief.
The reason I put people on the boards—and I don't think I was the only deputy minister to do this—was so there were eyes and ears of the department in the activities of the board. The role was to focus more on policy, performance and alignment with other departments. That was the focus.
In terms of Andrew Noseworthy reporting to me on this issue, I think you need to look at his testimony, which, I believe, says that he was informed by her when he was in the process of informing her that Annette was being appointed. It was very late in the process.
I'm reluctant to say more. Honestly, I don't remember, so I think it's a question you should ask Andrew Noseworthy.
NDP
Lindsay Mathyssen NDP London—Fanshawe, ON
This seems to contradict the testimony of Ms. Lawrence, or what she has said. I guess I'll leave it at that, if I don't have time.
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative John Williamson
Thank you.
Next is Mr. McCauley.
You have the floor for five minutes, please.
Conservative
Kelly McCauley Conservative Edmonton West, AB
Mr. Knubley, thanks for being with us today. You mentioned earlier that you were aware of conflicts of Ms. Verschuren because of your work together with the Science, Technology and Innovation Council and another council.
I assume that's correct.
Principal, InnovAction Advisory Services Inc., As an Individual
No, that's not correct.
Conservative
Kelly McCauley Conservative Edmonton West, AB
You weren't aware of any conflict that she had with...?
Principal, InnovAction Advisory Services Inc., As an Individual
I was aware of two things. Let me be clear.
Principal, InnovAction Advisory Services Inc., As an Individual
One is that, as she was appointed and being onboarded, I was aware that she had reached out to the Ethics Commissioner and had guidance. The second thing is that I was aware that NRStor had received a grant from SDTC 18 months earlier. As a deputy minister, I was aware that grant had happened.
Those are the two things I knew.