Evidence of meeting #151 for Public Accounts in the 44th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was sdtc.
A video is available from Parliament.
Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné Bloc Terrebonne, QC
I've got my fingers crossed that we won't have any problems, Mr. Chair.
Good morning, Mr. Knubley.
Can you hear me?
Principal, InnovAction Advisory Services Inc., As an Individual
Hello.
Yes, I can hear you.
Bloc
Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné Bloc Terrebonne, QC
Thank you for being here.
I'd like you to clarify everyone's role in your department.
When you were deputy minister, Mr. Noseworthy was part of your team as assistant deputy minister. He attended the Sustainable Development Technology Canada board meetings. However, we learned from the findings in the Auditor General's report that Mr. Noseworthy seemed unaware of his roles and responsibilities.
What can you tell us about that?
Principal, InnovAction Advisory Services Inc., As an Individual
What I want to say here is that, again, I think there were two representatives, if you like, during my time playing the role of interfacing with SDTC. It wasn't Andrew Noseworthy the full time. I believe there was another person, who was the assistant deputy minister for the innovation programs.
In terms of their role, I do agree with the Auditor General's report, which says that there should be in place a stated description of what role that person is playing in the relationship between SDTC and the department. I agree with that. Having said that, in my experience.... This is partly why I pointed to the evaluation of 2018. If you look there, you will see that there's a detailed management action plan in response to the evaluation, which spells out in some detail what Andrew Noseworthy's role was.
Principal, InnovAction Advisory Services Inc., As an Individual
By the way, I would like to table, Mr. Chair, perhaps after the meeting, this management action plan. I guess if I were still a deputy, I would have gotten organized in advance and tabled it in advance.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative John Williamson
Sure. You're welcome to send in anything.
I have stopped the clock.
Ms. Sinclair-Desgagné, you have three minutes and 40 seconds left.
Bloc
Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné Bloc Terrebonne, QC
Mr. Knubley, why did Mr. Noseworthy attend the SDTC board meetings? I want a very simple answer.
Principal, InnovAction Advisory Services Inc., As an Individual
As the deputy minister, I had a view—which is not shared by all deputy ministers—that there is an advantage to having members of the department ex officio—they're not actually members of the board—participating in the board meetings. Why is that? It's because without the direct participation in the board meetings, it's very challenging for the department to have an eye on the SDTC. That was my view.
Bloc
Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné Bloc Terrebonne, QC
Do you really think that Innovation, Science and Economic Development Canada had an eye on what was happening at SDTC? Do you really believe that the department saw and knew what was going on at SDTC?
That's more or less what you just said. You said that Andrew Noseworthy was responsible for informing the department about what was going on at SDTC, and, by “department”, I mean the minister and you.
Do I have that right?
Principal, InnovAction Advisory Services Inc., As an Individual
Yes. Let me just say and explain that he had quite a detailed agenda with them. Overall, it was about policy and performance. If you look at the evaluation management action plan, it talks about data issues, particularly—and this was in the Auditor General's report of 2017—establishing sound evidence around the extent to which these projects were actually reducing emissions. There were also recommendations on partnerships and alignment—
Bloc
Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné Bloc Terrebonne, QC
Okay. Thank you.
Mr. Knubley, I'm sorry to interrupt. I don't have much time, but I have a few more questions for you.
Principal, InnovAction Advisory Services Inc., As an Individual
I would like to complete my answer, though.
Bloc
Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné Bloc Terrebonne, QC
So, Mr. Noseworthy attended the board meetings. Did he tell you that there were several cases of conflict of interest at SDTC? The Auditor General identified a number of real conflicts of interest due to individuals not recusing themselves.
When you were deputy minister, did Mr. Noseworthy report to you that conflict of interest policies were not being followed? He was supposed to know them.
Principal, InnovAction Advisory Services Inc., As an Individual
All these things happened after I retired on June 28, 2019.
Principal, InnovAction Advisory Services Inc., As an Individual
However, what he reported to me on was—
Principal, InnovAction Advisory Services Inc., As an Individual
—what was in the management action plan.
Bloc
Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné Bloc Terrebonne, QC
According to the Auditor General's report, Andrée‑Lise Méthot was in a conflict of interest on August 3, 2017 and May 1, 2018. You were the deputy minister at the time. Mr. Noseworthy was in the meeting room. I want to know if you were aware that the conflict of interest policies were not being followed.
Principal, InnovAction Advisory Services Inc., As an Individual
What I was aware of was what was in the Auditor General's report of 2017 and the evaluation report of 2018, which said that there was a sound governance structure, that there were conflict of interest rules being pursued and that there were good processes around the implementation of the programming.
Bloc
Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné Bloc Terrebonne, QC
Okay. So that's when you stopped working. If people are doing good work, you stop looking at conflict of interest policies, is that how it works? The Auditor General's report dates back to 2017. Her audit covers the period beginning on March 1, 2017. You were still deputy minister at the time. Her audit covers a time when you were deputy minister. In her report, the Auditor General says that not only were the conflict of interest policies at SDTC unclear, but also they were not being followed. She identified 90 instances of conflict of interest policies not being followed, starting in 2017 and continuing until after your departure. There were conflicts of interest while you were deputy minister. An assistant deputy minister, the person in the position directly under yours, was present in the meeting room—
Bloc
Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné Bloc Terrebonne, QC
You're telling me that all the policies were followed, whereas the Auditor General says they weren't.
Are you refuting the Auditor General's findings?
Principal, InnovAction Advisory Services Inc., As an Individual
No, I'm not refuting your findings, but what I'm telling you is that what I knew in 2019, and prior to that, was what is contained in the AG's report of 2017 and in the evaluation report. On governance, again, there was a clean bill of health. There was reference, I think, in the evaluation report to improving the note-taking around conflict of interest and informing ISED. I think I was aware of that.
In terms of the issues about the agreements actually meeting the eligibility requirement, I think it's important that members understand that the work that was being done for some years, including before it came to ISED, around performance measures.... You need to have strong performance measures, especially from a longer-term perspective, in terms of measuring emission reductions. These are key to eligibility requirements.