Evidence of meeting #75 for Public Accounts in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was projects.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Karen Hogan  Auditor General, Office of the Auditor General
Simon Kennedy  Deputy Minister, Department of Industry
Vicky Eatrides  Chairperson and Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Radio-television and Telecommunications Commission
Éric Dagenais  Senior Assistant Deputy Minister, Spectrum and Telecommunications Sector, Department of Industry
Scott Hutton  Chief of Consumer, Research and Communications, Canadian Radio-television and Telecommunications Commission

11:05 a.m.

Liberal

The Vice-Chair Liberal Jean Yip

I call this meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting number 75 of the Standing Committee on Public Accounts.

Pursuant to Standing Order 108(3)(g), the committee is meeting today to study “Report 2: Connectivity in Rural and Remote Areas”, of the 2023 reports of the Auditor General of Canada.

I would now like to welcome our witnesses. From the Office of the Auditor General, we have Karen Hogan, Auditor General, and Sami Hannoush, principal. From Canadian Radio-television and Telecommunications Commission, we have Vicky Eatrides, chairperson and chief executive officer, and Scott Hutton, chief of consumer, research and communications. From the Department of Industry, we have Simon Kennedy, deputy minister, and Éric Dagenais, senior assistant deputy minister.

Ms. Hogan, you have the floor for five minutes.

11:05 a.m.

Karen Hogan Auditor General, Office of the Auditor General

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you for this opportunity to discuss our report on connectivity in rural and remote areas, which was tabled in the House of Commons on March 27, 2023.

I would like to acknowledge that this hearing is taking place on the unceded territory of the Algonquin Anishinabe people.

Joining me today is Sami Hannoush, the principal who was responsible for the audit.

In this audit, we looked at whether Innovation, Science and Economic Development Canada and the Canadian Radio-television and Telecommunications Commission had improved the accessibility, affordability and quality of high-speed Internet and mobile cellular connectivity for Canadians in rural and remote areas.

At a time when so much takes place online, it is critical for all Canadians to have access to reliable and affordable high-speed Internet and mobile cellular services. This is a matter of inclusion. When services are of poor quality or are unaffordable or unavailable, people are effectively excluded from participating fully and equally in many aspects of life today. This includes participating in the digital economy; accessing online education, banking, medical care and government services; and working remotely.

We found that overall access to Internet and mobile cellular services had improved across the country since our last audit in 2018; however, the federal government's strategy has yet to deliver results for many rural and remote communities and first nation reserves. Internet connectivity coverage in rural and remote areas is approximately 60% and just 43% on first nation reserves.

We also found delays in approving projects that were meant to bring services to rural and remote areas. For example, final approvals under CRTC’s Broadband Fund took an average of almost 2 years. Delays mean that 1.4 million households who are already underserved or not served at all are still waiting to be connected.

Access to services is not just about having the infrastructure in place to connect households, businesses, and institutions—it's also about the affordability and reliability of these services. We found, however, that the 2 organizations tracked only some dimensions of the affordability and quality of services. For example, they considered pricing as part of affordability, but did not consider household income. If the price of a service is beyond a household’s means, then connectivity will not improve, and some people will remain excluded.

These findings emphasize the persistent digital divide between people living in urban areas and people living on First Nations reserves and in rural and remote communities. Being connected is no longer a luxury but a basic essential service. The government needs to take action so that there is affordable, reliable, high-speed connectivity coverage for Canadians in all areas of the country.

This concludes my opening remarks. We would be pleased to answer any questions the Committee may have.

Thank you.

11:05 a.m.

Liberal

The Vice-Chair Liberal Jean Yip

Thank you.

We will suspend for one second so the actual chair can come in.

11:05 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative John Williamson

Mr. Kennedy, from Industry Canada, you have the floor, please. Thank you.

11:05 a.m.

Simon Kennedy Deputy Minister, Department of Industry

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Before I begin my remarks, I would also like to acknowledge that we are gathered on the traditional unceded territory of the Algonquin Anishinabe people.

I appreciate the opportunity to speak with you about the audit of rural and remote connectivity. This is a crucial issue and one with which my ministry is seized. As long as there are Canadians who are not connected to broadband Internet, we will not be satisfied, and we are as impatient as, I think, others that progress is made on this file. I appreciate the chance to provide an update on what we're doing.

In June of 2019, the government released Canada's first connectivity strategy. It included the goal of connecting all Canadians by 2030 and interim goals of connecting 90% of Canadians by 2021 and 98% by 2026. Overall, $7.6 billion has been committed federally to that strategy since 2015. That is an unprecedented amount. It's about 10 times more than all previous federal connectivity commitments since the 1990s combined, so it's a substantial investment.

I'm pleased to say that we are seeing strong and steady progress as a result of the government's connectivity strategy. For example, in 2018 only 86% of Canadian households had access to broadband Internet at speeds of 50 megabits per second download and 10 megabits per second upload. By the end of this year, we're anticipating that will grow to 94.6% of households, so that's about a 60% closing of the gap in the last five years. That is largely as a result of the significant investments that have been made.

Similar progress is happening in rural and indigenous communities. There is a lot more to be done—I want to be clear. I don't think we want to crow about success, but I think it's important to note that there has been a pretty rapid closure in the gaps, including in rural and indigenous communities. For example, in 2018 only about 42% of rural households had access to those speeds. At the end of this year, we're on track to reach 71% of households. That's a 70% improvement since 2018.

First nations coverage is also expanding significantly, slated to hit 50% coverage of broadband this year. That is up from 32% in 2018, so that's about 56% growth in coverage in the last five years.

Building out this infrastructure in challenging geographies takes time, it's true. And, like so many others, this sector has been subject to supply chain constraints. But we are still on track. Not only did we exceed our first goal of 90% coverage by 2021, but we’re also on track to surpass our next goal of 98% by 2026.

Our programs are also expanding mobile wireless coverage. For example, in partnership with B.C., we have a project to expand coverage along the Highway of Tears through B.C.

The government does recognize that affordability is an important issue for Canadians. Under the UBF or universal broadband fund, projects that lower prices to the consumer are prioritized. I would be happy to provide more detail in testimony. This means that rural Canadians will have access to modern services at prices that are comparable to those that are paid in urban areas.

I'd also note that we're building much faster speeds and for the needs of the future. About 80¢ of every dollar we're spending is going to one gigabit or better speeds. That means that fibre optic cable, basically, is the majority of the investments. Even though our standard is 50/10, most of the money is going to projects that are 20 times faster than that, so in some sense we're future-proofing the investments we're making, because they will have significant capacity.

As I noted, broadband projects, similar to other infrastructure projects, can take two to three years to complete, through permitting and construction. That will not, we believe, impact our ability to meet the goals. Funding recipients are able to begin their project and they are compensated as expenses are incurred. They actually have the ability to pre-spend a certain amount of money even before the final contract is signed, which means that projects are getting under way, the infrastructure is getting built and Canadians are benefiting.

We also have regulatory initiatives to support the efforts being made to directly invest in broadband. For example, we made more spectrum frequencies available, and we've implemented strong “use it or lose it” provisions for spectrum, so that people who purchase spectrum at auction actually have a legally binding requirement to deploy it.

We will ensure that the recommendations in the audit are implemented as part of our plan. For example, the government’s policy direction to the CRTC came into force in February and has measures to improve affordability and measuring quality of service.

In May of this year, we also updated our UBF public dashboard and our national broadband availability map to demonstrate progress.

The investments being made are transformational in scale, and we are only partway through our plan. We know we have a lot more work to do. We know there are Canadians in rural areas, we know there are indigenous Canadians, who are not yet connected, but I would just like to leave the main message that significant progress has been made. We anticipate meeting the future targets as we go year by year until we hit 100% of Canadians covered by 2030 and 98% in about two and a half years' time.

Thank you very much for the chance to be here with you today.

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative John Williamson

Thank you very much, Mr. Kennedy.

I don't know if you remember, but we served in the PMO at the same time some years ago. I'll catch up with you afterwards.

Ms. Eatrides, you now have the floor for five minutes, please.

11:10 a.m.

Vicky Eatrides Chairperson and Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Radio-television and Telecommunications Commission

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Thank you for inviting us to your committee.

Before I begin my remarks, like my colleagues, I would like to acknowledge that we are here gathered on the traditional unceded territory of the Algonquin Anishinabe people.

I'm joined this morning by my colleague, Scott Hutton, who leads the CRTC's consumer and research work.

I am looking forward to your questions, so let me just briefly touch on three things. First, what the CRTC has heard directly from Canadians on the importance of highspeed Internet. Second, the role we are playing as part of the broader collective effort to connect communities. And finally, what we are doing to respond to the report.

I think we can all agree with the Auditor General that access to the Internet is vital. No matter where we live, Canadians need reliable, affordable and high-quality Internet for every part of our daily lives.

Since taking on my role earlier this year, I've heard stories directly from community members across Canada, in places like Whitehorse, Winnipeg, Cape Breton and other regions, about how our telecommunications services have fallen short.

Let me share a couple of brief examples of what we heard in the Yukon. We heard about the lack of education for children where, during the pandemic, without access to high-speed Internet, they lost out on one, two and three years of schooling. We heard about the impact on the safety of community members, including seniors. We were told about an elder lying on the floor for 24 hours, because she needed medical attention and was unable to access the medical alerting services that are available elsewhere across the country.

Obviously, these types of stories are troubling, and though we have made strides together to connect communities, more needs to be done.

This brings me to the CRTC's role. As you know, we are a quasi-judicial tribunal that regulates the broadcasting and telecommunications industries. In 2019, the CRTC launched a broadband fund to help improve access. It is 100% funded by Canadian telecommunications companies. The fund is part of a much broader effort to connect communities. It represents less than 3% of all federal, provincial and territorial government support for these types of projects.

So far, the CRTC has committed over $240 million to improve access to high-speed Internet and cellphone services in 205 rural and remote communities, including 89 indigenous communities. We are making progress, but we know that more needs to be done.

That’s why we welcome the four recommendations that relate to the CRTC in the Auditor General’s report and are taking action to address them. One of the recommendations relates to the CRTC’s Broadband Fund application process and three relate to data collection and management. We are already improving the application process and moving faster.

Our third call closed in June. We received over 100 applications seeking $1.9 billion for projects to improve service in the hardest-to-reach communities. With this call, we have cut the time it takes us from receipt of applications to issuance of decisions by over 40%.

At the same time, we launched a broad public consultation on how to make the application process faster and easier; on creating a new funding stream for Indigenous communities; and on funding projects that would increase the reliability of rural and remote networks.

With respect to the Auditor General’s recommendations regarding data collection and management, we are working with ISED and other partners on those joint recommendations.

The action that the CRTC is taking in collaboration with ISED and other partners is aimed at ensuring that all Canadians have reliable high-speed Internet. We all want Canadians to participate fully in our society and to access essential services like health care and education. We are committed to doing our part and to working with partners to help connect Canadians.

Thank you. We look forward to your questions.

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative John Williamson

Thank you very much.

I just want to take a moment to welcome everyone here. I apologize for being a few minutes late.

Ms. Yip, thank you very much for subbing in for me. I do appreciate it. We try to be a well-functioning and efficient committee, and I think we do that, so thank you, Ms. Yip.

Turning now to members, we'll begin with Mr. Mazier.

You have the floor for six minutes, please.

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

Dan Mazier Conservative Dauphin—Swan River—Neepawa, MB

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you to the witnesses for coming here today, and thank you, Ms. Hogan, for shedding a light on the complications we have with connecting rural Canada.

I'm from southwestern Manitoba, and I've lived in rural Canada all my life. It has been truly a challenge to get even a voice at the table to try to shine some light on this important subject, so thank you very much for that.

Mr. Kennedy, the government plans to connect all Canadians to high-speed Internet by 2030. Is that correct?

11:20 a.m.

Deputy Minister, Department of Industry

Simon Kennedy

That is the objective, yes.

11:20 a.m.

Conservative

Dan Mazier Conservative Dauphin—Swan River—Neepawa, MB

That's a yes.

What year does the government plan to connect all Canadians and major roadways with reliable cellular service?

11:20 a.m.

Deputy Minister, Department of Industry

Simon Kennedy

The current plan is focused on broadband access, wireline broadband access. There are funds that have been provided through the strategy for mobile. At this point, we are working to deploy those funds, but it's clear that more funding will be required to connect all major roadways with cellular coverage. That is something that we will have to return to, but the focus of the strategy is to connect all Canadians to wireline broadband.

11:20 a.m.

Conservative

Dan Mazier Conservative Dauphin—Swan River—Neepawa, MB

I'll add this, and then we'll have a conversation.

The Auditor General stated in her report that the government's connectivity strategy “did not include targets for mobile cellular connectivity.” Has that changed?

11:20 a.m.

Deputy Minister, Department of Industry

Simon Kennedy

We agreed, in response to the Auditor General, to take that back and look at that. We agree that mobile coverage is very important. The current focus of the strategy is wire line, but certainly, cellular coverage along major roads and critical areas is something that we believe is important. There has been some investment in that space, but as I noted, there would need to be additional investment to connect all roadways to cellular coverage.

11:20 a.m.

Conservative

Dan Mazier Conservative Dauphin—Swan River—Neepawa, MB

Does the department have a cellular connectivity plan yet?

11:20 a.m.

Deputy Minister, Department of Industry

Simon Kennedy

We have an element of the universal broadband fund that's focused on—

11:20 a.m.

Conservative

Dan Mazier Conservative Dauphin—Swan River—Neepawa, MB

Do you have a cellular plan target?

11:20 a.m.

Deputy Minister, Department of Industry

Simon Kennedy

At the moment, there is not a target for cellular coverage, but there is an element of the plan that's focused on cellular coverage and we have some resources that we're deploying now to that end.

11:20 a.m.

Conservative

Dan Mazier Conservative Dauphin—Swan River—Neepawa, MB

How does the government measure results when you don't even have a target?

11:20 a.m.

Deputy Minister, Department of Industry

Simon Kennedy

I would just note that the purpose in the universal broadband fund was to connect all Canadians to mobile wireline broadband, and that's the focus—

11:20 a.m.

Conservative

Dan Mazier Conservative Dauphin—Swan River—Neepawa, MB

It's mobile, including cellular, so that does include.... That's okay.

Ms. Hogan, I'm referring to exhibit 2.2 on page 8 of your report. You've included in your report a graph that shows the number of Canadians with access to mobile cellular services. Is that correct?

11:20 a.m.

Auditor General, Office of the Auditor General

Karen Hogan

Yes, we did.

11:20 a.m.

Conservative

Dan Mazier Conservative Dauphin—Swan River—Neepawa, MB

Can you read the percentage of Canadians in rural and remote areas who have access to mobile cellular coverage in 2020?

11:20 a.m.

Auditor General, Office of the Auditor General

Karen Hogan

The graph shows coverage up until the end of 2021—

11:20 a.m.

Conservative

Dan Mazier Conservative Dauphin—Swan River—Neepawa, MB

Yes, just for 2020.