Public Accounts Committee on Feb. 13th, 2024

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

You have 50 seconds.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

Just very quickly, I want to read a line from the Information Commissioner regarding the ATIP request. It says that the CBSA “improperly responded that it did not have records responsive to the above-noted access request”.

Now, you're aware of the concerns expressed that Mr. Doan has deleted emails. I'm just curious. How does your department respond? With all this going on—deleted emails, an investigation—how is it that your department “improperly responded that it did not have records responsive to” an ATIP request specifically on ArriveCAN?

[Erin O'Gorman]

I'm not aware of who makes the ATIP requests. If I look confused, it's because—

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

But your department improperly—

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Mr. McCauley.

Ms. O'Gorman, you have the floor, please.

[Erin O'Gorman]

I will look into that investigation. I don't have any information on it now.

We take our ATIP responsibilities extremely seriously. We have a very high volume. I will look into those concerns.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you very much.

Ms. Yip, you now have the floor for five minutes.

[Jean Yip, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

Thank you.

Like many of my colleagues here on this committee, I'm surprised and disappointed at the lack of accountability and the missing information. I would like to clarify that no one here is minimizing anything contained in this report.

I would like to ask you why the CBSA's own procurement directorate was not involved in the contracting process.

[Erin O'Gorman]

There seemed to be an ability of the individuals in certain areas or maybe all areas of the IT group to deal directly with PSPC on contracts. That's not a best practice.

I have established and elevated the role of the procurement directorate to play its proper function in accordance with policy, which is to receive requirements from the various business owners across the department and develop procurement plans, to the extent that procurement can take place within the CBSA's authority to take the lead on that, or interface with PSPC. That wasn't happening. That is now the requirement. We have a bolstered and more senior level responsible for procurement in the department.

[Jean Yip, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

Why did the CBSA continue to award contracts after PSPC and CBSA officials provided alternative options?

[Erin O'Gorman]

As I have indicated, under my leadership, we will work with PSPC. We will not discount their feedback. We will take their concerns extremely seriously, and we will work collaboratively with them.

[Jean Yip, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

Isn't there always a process or a requirement for people to disclose relationships with contractors?

[Erin O'Gorman]

It's absolutely part of our code of conduct. The fact that, in response to the audit and the procurement ombud's report, we put in place a requirement that it be disclosed suggests that people, right now, don't understand their obligations.

I would like to think everybody understood the code and carried out the requirements of the code. It looks like that's not the case. We are going a step further and requiring people to make these disclosures so there's no ambiguity when questions arise.

[Jean Yip, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

What are the consequences for those who don't disclose these relationships?

[Erin O'Gorman]

It's a new process, but this is inconsistent with the code. We have the ability to issue discipline if we understand what the underlying issue is. Founded issues might be somebody needing training or somebody understanding their obligations and disregarding them, in which case discipline is available to us.

[Jean Yip, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

Can you tell us about the new assurance reviews that CBSA will begin conducting annually?

[Erin O'Gorman]

It speaks to the absence of controls.

As the deputy head, I'm not going to look at every document that comes through, but I need the ability to have some assurance that files are complete and that people are following their roles and responsibilities. This is a fairly standard process in the public service. There are policies and guidance related to that.

I'm making sure our assurance function meets all of those obligations and more, and provides regular updates on the extent to which some of the gaps that existed have been closed.

[Jean Yip, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

Who is going to make up the new contract review board?

[Erin O'Gorman]

That's chaired by my executive vice-president and comprises our executive team as well as members of the procurement team. It's quite a large body and it meets on a regular basis to keep the business running and make sure the challenge function takes place across the board.

[Jean Yip, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

How long will the members serve on the board?

[Erin O'Gorman]

As long as they're in their positions.

[Jean Yip, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

What tools will they have if there's wrongdoing that happens?

[Erin O'Gorman]

There's quite a well-established mechanism within CBSA for addressing misconduct. It's similar to that of other large organizations.

I'm not concerned that the committee and chair won't be able to address wrongdoing. It was more the challenge function and the broader accountability for procurement that were missing in the agency.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you very much.

This will be our last full round.

Mrs. Kusie, you have the floor for five minutes.

[Stephanie Kusie, Conservative, Calgary Midnapore, AB]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Thank you very much to our witnesses for being here today.

I'll first go back to the report and finding 1.41.

Auditor General, this section says:

We reviewed available records and could not determine which agency official made the final decision to select GC Strategies.

However, as my colleagues indicated here today, there is documentation provided that shows the previous CBSA head, in coordination with the CIO, came to this decision.

I'm wondering why you did not come to this decision, given this piece of documentation. Why do you think this is, if you believe this piece of documentation was not provided to you, if you were not able to discern who came to this final decision based upon this piece of documentation? Why were you not able to determine who made the final decision to select GC Strategies, given the documentation my team presented here today?