Public Safety Committee on Nov. 2nd, 2006

[Dave MacKenzie, Conservative, Oxford, ON]

That's fine. I guess what I wanted to eliminate was the comment that it's “training light”. They will not be trained light, but will be trained in the same manner as the RCMP trains the trainers. They will be expected to be at that level in the use of force.

[D/Commr Peter Martin]

The RCMP would have great concern about being party to any substandard training program.

[Dave MacKenzie, Conservative, Oxford, ON]

That's where I wanted to go.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

Thank you.

Mr. Hawn.

[Laurie Hawn, Conservative, Edmonton Centre, AB]

Thank you, Chair.

I have a couple of quick questions for CBSA.

There are 2,200 members who will not receive the training, according to current plans. I assume those are the airport folks.

[Candace Breakwell]

I believe, for the most part, they are the airport—

[Laurie Hawn, Conservative, Edmonton Centre, AB]

And why is that?

[Candace Breakwell]

It was studied, and I understand it was determined there is not a risk at airports. There are sufficient personnel, RCMP and others.

[Laurie Hawn, Conservative, Edmonton Centre, AB]

I would suggest that's not true at airports. Even in Edmonton, for example, there's a significant physical distance between where the RCMP is and where the CBSA people are carrying out their duties, and I suggest that should be looked at.

On the same topic, though, does that give you any concern with respect to morale within CBSA, where you've got two classes of agent—some who are trained to one level, some who are trained to another?

[Dave MacKenzie, Conservative, Oxford, ON]

With all due respect, I think we're getting into an area that's not part of what these folks could answer.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

Is that a point of order?

[Dave MacKenzie, Conservative, Oxford, ON]

I hate to do that, but you have to be fair, and I don't think that's a fair question.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

Okay, Mr. Hawn, carry on.

[Laurie Hawn, Conservative, Edmonton Centre, AB]

Are there any concerns within CBSA with respect to CUTA, with respect to how that's perceived by the members of CBSA?

Is that okay?

[Candace Breakwell]

I'm sorry, I didn't hear the question.

[Laurie Hawn, Conservative, Edmonton Centre, AB]

There are going to be two levels of qualification for CBSA--some who are firearms trained and youth support trained and some who are not. Do you anticipate any concerns within the personnel at CBSA because of that?

[Candace Breakwell]

I wouldn't think so, but I need to...I'd say no.

[Laurie Hawn, Conservative, Edmonton Centre, AB]

I'll take that up in another venue, because I don't think that's true.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

Mr. Cotler, please.

I'm going to shorten these two rounds.

Monsieur Ménard, did you have another question? We have to vacate this room in about five minutes, so maybe a brief question and....

[Irwin Cotler, Liberal, Mount Royal, QC]

I'll ask my question on the overrepresentation of aboriginal offenders in the correctional system and reference the discriminatory practices in the correctional system as set forth in the correctional investigator's report, because the delivery of aboriginal correctional programs and services is a legitimate subject matter of inquiry and is a specific budgetary matter in the main estimates.

My question, therefore, looking at the main estimates projection for 2006-07, is why has the total contribution in matters related to the delivery of aboriginal correctional services and programs been reduced by some half a million dollars, namely from $1,851,000 in 2005-06 to $1,351,000 in 2006-07, when the problems appear to have been greater than they were before?

[John Brunet]

I'm sorry, I don't know the specific reference you're referring to. This is in the main estimates of Public Safety?

[Irwin Cotler, Liberal, Mount Royal, QC]

Yes. I'm referring to what's under the heading “Correctional Service” with respect to transfer payments, under the heading “Contributions”. The overall contributions with respect to the main estimates 2006-07 are half a million dollars less than in the previous year with respect to matters related to the delivery of aboriginal correctional programs and services.

I would have thought the projected estimates would have been enhanced, given the problems as set forth in the correctional investigator's report. Here they appear to have been cut.

[John Brunet]

I'm sorry. I'm looking at the transfer payments, grants and contributions, and I don't see your reference to the aboriginal payments.

[Irwin Cotler, Liberal, Mount Royal, QC]

Under transfer payments, under the heading “Contributions”, there are two subject matters--care and custody, and rehabilitation and case management. Under care and custody, there appears to have been a dramatic reduction with regard to payments to aboriginal communities for delivery of aboriginal correction programs and services.

In rehabilitation and case management there's somewhat of an increase, but the overall compendium here is one of a reduction of a half million dollars. I'm saying that appears to be at variance with the report by the correctional investigator to the effect that the problems are increasing and not lessening in the matter of discriminatory practice in the correctional services respecting aboriginal people.

[John Brunet]

The reason for my confusion was that within the public safety department, we also have policy work and contribution work to aboriginals and corrections writ large. I was thinking that the reference you made was to Public Safety contributions.

Unfortunately, I'm not familiar with the details of Correctional Services operations. I do know it's a focus of theirs, but I couldn't explain the modification, whether the money was redirected or whether it was used for a different element of aboriginal correctional services. Unfortunately, we'll just have to take that and perhaps have Correctional Services come back to you with an answer on that redirection.