Public Safety Committee on Nov. 2nd, 2006

[Stockwell Day, Conservative, Okanagan—Coquihalla, BC]

I wish to clarify something.

Gunsmiths have to keep a registry...

[Serge Ménard, Bloc, Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC]

I think I'm going to ask you this in English because apparently you don't understand my question. That is not what I am asking you.

What I am asking you is simple. You said that you are re-establishing the system of having transactions with arms sellers, that they will have to register the transactions for people who buy guns.

Where would they keep these registrations? What will they do with them? Will they transfer them to a central system, or will they keep them in their stores, as they used to do years ago?

[Stockwell Day, Conservative, Okanagan—Coquihalla, BC]

I understood your question, sir, and was in the process of answering it. Pardon me if my French is not 100%. If you had difficulty with it, I can understand that.

Any individual who wants to purchase a firearm of any kind must have their licence. That has to be checked when they purchase a gun. When the transaction is completed, the person who keeps that file must keep a record of that transaction. For every person who sells a firearm, or even if your neighbour wants to just give you a firearm, there has to be verification of the licence and a record kept of the transaction.

[Serge Ménard, Bloc, Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC]

Not answering is a way of answering. I will have to make do with that one for the time being, because you do not want to give it to me.

I see that the expenditures for registration activities are expected to rise from $14.550 million to $14.654 million. But you’ve always said that the savings from non-registration would be dedicated to something else.

Can you tell me what savings you expect to make from ending the long gun registry?

[Stockwell Day, Conservative, Okanagan—Coquihalla, BC]

Every time someone from here or outside says there isn’t a registration system, I have to take the time to check and correct this.

In Canada, in all the provinces and territories, we have a registration system. We want a stronger system than the one the Liberals had. Every time someone says that we don’t have a registration system, I have to correct them.

Ever since we have had a good system, the one that is in place now, we have saved close to $13 million. Simply by transferring firearms registration to the RCMP, we managed to save $10 million, and then the RCMP was able to save another $3 million.

Mr. Peter Martin, Deputy Commissioner of the RCMP, who is in charge of the program, can give you more details if he wishes.

[Serge Ménard, Bloc, Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC]

I am sorry to contradict you, Mr. Minister, but on page 427 of our documents, we read that the operating expenditures for registration activities and functions alone is rising from $14.550 million to $14.654 million. I don’t see where the savings are that you’re talking about.

I’m going to ask you a question since I don’t have much time and you never seem to actually answer the question.

Will the gunsmiths who register the sales transactions be paid? Will they be compensated for performing this job and how much will it be?

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

This will have to be your final question.

[Stockwell Day, Conservative, Okanagan—Coquihalla, BC]

We do not intend to give money to the people who sell firearms. The responsibility for keeping a register is theirs, not the taxpayers’.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

There are seven seconds left, so I guess there's not enough time.

Monsieur Dewar.

[Paul Dewar, NDP, Ottawa Centre, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

I just want to return to the cost of the long gun registry. I'm substituting for my colleague, Mr. Comartin, and he brought forward the idea with the previous government of a cap of $25 million for this process.

What would be the savings in the change to the long gun registry? Do you have an amount? I think that's the question many want to know.

[Stockwell Day, Conservative, Okanagan—Coquihalla, BC]

That would be hard for me to quantify, but maybe Commissioner Martin will be able to reflect on that.

[D/Commr Peter Martin, Deputy Commissioner, National Police Services of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police]

Thank you, Minister.

It's hard to give you precise numbers, but the long gun portion of the activity accounts for about 20% of what's done in the registry right now.

As Minister Day mentioned, there's quite a comprehensive program on training, on making sure the database on restricted and prohibited weapons is maintained. The infrastructure would still be required for that type of activity, roughly speaking, but it is an estimate.

[Paul Dewar, NDP, Ottawa Centre, ON]

Could I say $2 million would be saved?

[D/Commr Peter Martin]

I would suggest it would be more than that.

[Paul Dewar, NDP, Ottawa Centre, ON]

We've been told, or it's been made known by the head of the Canada Firearms Centre, that it would be $2 million.

[Stockwell Day, Conservative, Okanagan—Coquihalla, BC]

If I could reflect on that, it's a good question, Mr. Dewar.

If it's 20% of the whole system, this year our costs are a shade over $83 million, so 20% would be quite a bit more than that. It's not just the cost; it's the difficulty in maintaining the accuracy of the records, especially when you're dealing with the types of firearms that we're talking about, which exist mainly in rural communities, farms--firearms that have been passed down for years, decades, if not longer. Investing in a system that is inaccurate when the money could be more properly invested in programs for youth at risk, for instance, or gang activity, focusing on crime with handguns, where a substantial part of firearm crime happens--

[Paul Dewar, NDP, Ottawa Centre, ON]

I appreciate that. I'm asking a very straightforward question, and I'm hearing different opinions as to what the savings would be. We're hearing $2 million, and you're suggesting it's more. We obviously need to do some work on that and we need some clarification.

If I may turn to another topic related to guns, you were talking about homicides. I would like to know how many police officers in the past five years have been killed by long guns. Do we have a number on that?

[Stockwell Day, Conservative, Okanagan—Coquihalla, BC]

In the last five years?

[Paul Dewar, NDP, Ottawa Centre, ON]

Yes, approximately in the last five years. Do we have an idea of how many police officers have been killed due to the use of long guns specifically?

You were talking about homicides, and there have been some very well-known cases recently, in the last couple of years. In the case of those police officers who, sadly, were slain, long guns were used. When we hear you saying in homicides it's not a very significant number, and when we think of the number of police officers who have been slain by the use of long guns, I think it's important to know.

People are very concerned with the safety of our police officers, and if long guns are being used to kill them, I think that needs to be put on the table. I don't know if you have a number, but maybe you could get back to the committee on that.

[Stockwell Day, Conservative, Okanagan—Coquihalla, BC]

I can get back to the committee with the precise number. It's a key question, Mr. Chairman.

I can tell my colleague this. In looking at the last couple of years, the one instance in Montreal that I referred to would have been prevented, I believe, had we had a restriction in place for somebody who had a record, as that individual did. He wouldn't even have had that.

The other tragic case this year is of two RCMP constables who were killed with a long gun that was illegally obtained. In the Mayerthorpe disaster, it was also illegally acquired. The system was in place, but the system did not save those lives, as tragic as that was.

[Paul Dewar, NDP, Ottawa Centre, ON]

Some might argue that to get rid of that component of the registry, as opposed to tightening it up.... That might be another way of approaching it, in terms of policy--tracking the guns, if you will. I know that's an issue you're looking at.

I want to wrap up, and I'll go back to my point that my understanding is that in terms of administration--I know all the other things you were talking about when you were talking about $80 million--the actual administration of the registry, we were talking $25 million very specifically. That actually had come down.

My colleague was very specific with the previous government about having a cap, because of all the concerns that had been brought forward, and that the cap be $25 million. I'm a little puzzled, as we're hearing that it would be a savings of about $2 million if we have the changes to the long gun registry. I think we really need to have clarification on that, because we're hearing that billions of dollars are being spent, etc., and it might mislead people in understanding what the actual savings would be, and then of course there are the effects of those changes that I've already mentioned.

[Stockwell Day, Conservative, Okanagan—Coquihalla, BC]

That's a good point. You mentioned the $2 million. Where did that figure come from?

[Paul Dewar, NDP, Ottawa Centre, ON]

I'll get back to you on that. My understanding was--and again, I'm subbing today and I'm looking to my colleagues on this--that it was the head of the Canada Firearms Centre who was telling committee members, I believe, that the actual savings for the long gun registry would be approximately $2 million.

[Stockwell Day, Conservative, Okanagan—Coquihalla, BC]

Okay. I want to get a clarification on that, because the overall cost this year is coming down as $83 million for the whole program.

[Paul Dewar, NDP, Ottawa Centre, ON]

That's the whole program, but very specifically on those.