Public Safety Committee on Nov. 2nd, 2006

[D/Commr Peter Martin]

We have a capacity problem when it comes to training that many people. Discussions up to this point have focused on a train the trainer approach.

You have to be careful. It's not an issue of training on the use of firearms; it's training on the use of force. The use of a firearm is only one element in the force continuum. When you talk about an intervention with an individual, you have to start first with dialogue. The use of force is an escalating process, the final stage being the use of a firearm. So it's quite a comprehensive thing to undertake. In this particular case we just don't have the capacity to take that on. The training of 7,000 officers is a significant job.

We are, however, working with the border agency in order to provide their trainers with the training that they would then deliver within their own agency.

[Mark Holland, Liberal, Ajax—Pickering, ON]

I understand that. I think you've underscored my very point, which is that this is an extremely complicated matter of training individuals on the use of force, who previously did not have that in their job description.

So what would it take from the position of the RCMP to get to a position where you were resourced enough to be able to do that? What kind of time? What kind of money? How much would it take to get the RCMP to do it and do it right?

[D/Commr Peter Martin]

There again, Mr. Holland, if I tried to give you a number off the top of my head, it would be incorrect. I have absolutely no idea.

[Mark Holland, Liberal, Ajax—Pickering, ON]

Okay. I'll have to try to find some other way to get an idea of that then. If you could get back to me, having looked at that, I'd appreciate it.

Can I go to this notion of there being $100 million over the next two years for the arming of border officers, while we know this is going to be a 10-year initiative? We know there are going to be a lot of costs, not only in the training but also in salaries, because obviously individuals who are now having to use force are going to have to be paid more. We're going to have ongoing training costs.

Do you have a sense--because I haven't been able to get this number from anybody--of what we're looking at over a 10-year period in terms of costs when we're looking at $100 million over two years? What is the full rollout of this program over the 10-year period of time?

[Candace Breakwell]

I understand that over 10 years it will be $1 billion.

[Mark Holland, Liberal, Ajax—Pickering, ON]

It will be a billion dollars. Can you break that down a little bit for me?

[Candace Breakwell]

I can't, other than in generalities; it will be $58 million in training and support and program, and $43 million for infrastructure and equipment.

[Mark Holland, Liberal, Ajax—Pickering, ON]

Okay. Would it be possible for you to provide me with a more detailed breakdown of how we get to a billion dollars?

[Candace Breakwell]

Excuse me, I'm sorry, that was over two years, the $58 million and $43 million.

[Mark Holland, Liberal, Ajax—Pickering, ON]

I was going to say that's a long way to a billion.

[Candace Breakwell]

I don't have those numbers broken down over 10 years. I can't provide another figure.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

I think all of us at the committee would be interested in that.

We will now have to move over to--

[Mark Holland, Liberal, Ajax—Pickering, ON]

Ms. Breakwell didn't have an opportunity to answer.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

Will you be able to provide that information to the committee?

[Candace Breakwell]

I will certainly try.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

Okay. That's all we can expect.

Mr. Ménard is next.

[Serge Ménard, Bloc, Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I am going to turn first to the RCMP representative, although I will tell you right away that I really liked your explanations about the progressive use of force, the police force principle of intervention, before using firearms.

I want to ask you a specific question. On page 427 of the estimates—I thought that when I was given this PDF version, I had the same pagination as you, but let’s say it’s the first page of point 25—, there is mention of the Canadian Firearms Centre and operating expenditures for registration activities and functions. We see that last year you asked for $14.550 million and that next year you’re asking for $14.654 million.

I know, Mr. Martin, that we have to get rid of long gun registration, and therefore you’re not including expenses for long gun registration. So, if you register fewer arms and you expect to register even fewer, why are you asking for $104,000 more to register firearms?

[D/Commr Peter Martin]

The decision on the registration of long guns has not been passed yet, so at the present time we still have to maintain the long gun registry, although there is an amnesty in place. However, if the legislation does not go through, we are still going to have to pick that up and make sure the information is up to date.

Mr. Ménard, when you were talking earlier about the $14.6 million, those are the operating expenses for the registration activities. Long guns, restricted weapons, and prohibited weapons are included. When you go down the complete list of expenditures to support the registry, the $83.6 million has now been reduced by $13 million; a $10 million reduction was undertaken when the registry was moved over to the RCMP, and we have since identified another $3 million.

The way we're doing that is there is a large benefit in putting this over to the force. At the outset the registry was composed with a very high-level hierarchy. The lead person was at a deputy minister one level; there were a number of EX-2s and two EX-3s, so there was a large management structure. We have taken that away. It's now at the DG level. The most senior position in the Canada Firearms Centre is now an EX-3. We have also integrated with the RCMP infrastructure. As an example, there was a self-standing human resource activity, a finance activity, and a CIO--chief information officer--at the registry; all of that infrastructure is inside the RCMP as well, so the registry is now served by the RCMP's HR component, their finance component, and their technology component.

There are a large number of consultants there. The Canadian firearms system that's used to drive the database is a program that was written by consultants. We have taken on those duties and responsibilities.

That's how we've been able to save the money, and the budget right now is down to $70 million for the registry.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

You have a supplementary question, Mr. Ménard.

[Serge Ménard, Bloc, Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC]

I asked you why you are demanding an additional $104,000. I’m told that it isn’t the $83 million entered at the bottom of the list, but rather $73 million. I confess that I don’t understand. Why are we given the figure of $83 million, when we’re getting ready for committee sessions, when the final figure is $73 million?

I think that they don’t want us to ask questions that are too specific.

I’m going to ask you another one. You’re getting a budget increase, again this year, and you expect another one next year. Do you still intend to close down nine RCMP stations in Quebec?

[D/Commr Peter Martin]

I don't know whether you're asking a question about the registry or Quebec.

[Serge Ménard, Bloc, Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC]

I began by making some remarks about firearms registration, which seems justified because you didn’t answer my question.

I ask you whether, further to the increase in your budget, you intend to reopen the nine stations that you closed in Quebec, or whether you have completely given up on land border surveillance.

[D/Commr Peter Martin]

Of the detachments in Quebec, the resources that were used in those particular areas have been reassigned within the province to more efficiently address the strategic priorities of policing in the province.

[Serge Ménard, Bloc, Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC]

I have one last question...

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

We'll now move over to Mr. Dewar for five minutes, please.

We can come back to you, sir.