Public Safety Committee on Feb. 1st, 2007

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

You have one minute.

[Brian Masse, NDP, Windsor West, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I want to quickly return to the turnover. I believe you mentioned that it was 12%, which is still fairly high. You're losing them to other police departments, I assume, and to the RCMP and the OPP. Is that what's happening? Are those people, once they're trained by you, going to other departments? What can be done about plugging that gap?

One of the concerns I have is continuity, and if it's not 18%, it's still 12%, and that's a fairly high turnover rate for any organization to have.

[Alain Jolicoeur]

Large numbers of our employees are big centres. We are all familiar, for instance, with the employment and labour shortages in some parts of the country, in the west in particular. A lot of our employees quit for different jobs. Sometimes it's related to the market and the salaries that are offered. Some of our employees are going in the direction you are suggesting. But we could quote a variety of issues.

[Brian Masse, NDP, Windsor West, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[Barbara Hébert]

Mr. Chair, the president referred to different reasons. I can tell the committee of an example in Vancouver where there is a lot of market competition for skilled workers, and it's very difficult to maintain a stable workforce. In other parts of the country, as per your suggestion in your area, certainly there is an interest among some employees to go to another law enforcement agency. It really is a combination of factors.

[Brian Masse, NDP, Windsor West, ON]

Do you have an actual plan to address this? Is there an actual business plan you have to address this? These are the people who guard our borders and our front line for us. If that's systemic, then are you actually developing a business plan on how to retain more of our people after they are trained? We'd present that to the government. Because it costs hundred of thousands of dollars to train them.

[Alain Jolicoeur]

I just want to say that we have the proper number of people deployed in each of these positions, but you're right that the higher turnover brings a higher cost. This has to be balanced with the other responsibilities of the government as an employer.

Most of these things are discussed and planned in the context of collective bargaining. One important element of the collective bargaining process is to compare the salaries and benefits that are given to our employees with what exists outside for similar jobs, and that is taken into account. As part of our new classification initiative and to prepare for the next round of collective bargaining, those things will be taken into account.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

Thank you.

We'll move over to the government side now.

Go ahead, Mr. Brown.

[Gord Brown, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I'd like to thank our witnesses for coming today.

I personally have a great deal of interest in the border situation. I represent a riding that has two border crossings: the Thousand Islands bridge and the Johnstown-Ogdensburg bridge.

I have read the altered ModuSpec report. I've also read the Northgate report, and I know a lot of the front line officers. These are people I grew up with and play hockey with. Their children are at school with my child. So I do know what's going on on the front lines.

I am concerned that the Canadian Border Services Agency seems to be taking too long and is not necessarily committed to moving this as quickly as it might. We heard, not that long ago, that it was going to take 10 full years and $1 billion to do this, as well. Mr. Jolicoeur said it was $781 million to date.

Mr. Jolicoeur, are you personally committed to carrying out the government policy on arming the border guards?

[Alain Jolicoeur]

Mr. Chair, yes. As a senior civil servant, I provided options for the government to consider, I provided options to do it faster, and I'm basically implementing the government decision to do it over that period of time.

[Gord Brown, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville, ON]

Have you ever said you would resign rather than implement this government policy?

[Alain Jolicoeur]

Mr. Chair, I'm here as an accounting officer, as per the new legislation, Bill C-2. Basically, my responsibility is to account before a parliamentary committee for the way I'm implementing the government's decisions. Basically we are faithfully doing it, there's no question about it.

[Gord Brown, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville, ON]

But did you ever say that you would resign rather than carry out the government's policy on arming border guards?

[Alain Jolicoeur]

Mr. Chair, in the context of labour relations, any civil servant has to implement government decisions and support government positions. In that context—

[Gord Brown, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville, ON]

Obviously you're not going to answer that, and that's fine. Thank you.

This is what I want to get at. I have a great deal of concern about, first of all, the withdrawal policy. How do you feel about the withdrawal policy--i.e., when there's a potentially dangerous situation, the border service agents withdraw?

[Alain Jolicoeur]

Just to be sure that I understand your concern, is it that employees are using the rights they have under the Labour Code?

[Gord Brown, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville, ON]

That's correct. How do you feel about that?

[Alain Jolicoeur]

Again, it's the law of this country. The law provides for the possibility for employees to withdraw when they feel they are at risk. They do it, and the process is fairly clear. Specialists from Labour Canada come in and they rule on every one of these situations.

[Gord Brown, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville, ON]

What's your opinion on work-alone situations across the country?

[Alain Jolicoeur]

My opinion on work-alone situations in this country is that it's safer to have two employees rather than one, especially in isolated areas, on any shift.

The government has given us the funds to correct those situations over three years. We're going to hire 400 people over three years. I think the first 50 are coming in the next fiscal year. That's basically what we're doing.

[Gord Brown, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville, ON]

Maybe I'll bring Monsieur Borduas in here. We have heard from some opposition members that they think local law enforcement could help. The situation in my riding is that we do not have RCMP detachments; the OPP does our area.

How long do you think it would take in the case of, for example, the Thousand Islands bridge to get a law enforcement agent from another agency to get to the border if there were a dangerous situation?

[D/Commr Pierre-Yves Bourduas]

That's purely a hypothetical situation. I would say it's all predicated upon the level of threat and what the threat is that's out there.

You may recall that last January, in 2006, at the Pacific entrance there was an armed and dangerous individual heading towards Canada. I think we all saw the news clip. This individual was apprehended by U.S. officials as he was approaching the Canadian border, but we had members on-site at the time ready to intervene.

It's predicated upon the environment. If you have a port that is in Forest City, New Brunswick, and it takes an hour to get there, then the situation is completely different.

[Gord Brown, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville, ON]

What if it were a situation that arose quickly? Our border service agents could be in jeopardy, if there were a dangerous situation, in waiting for other law enforcement agencies to show up at the border.

[D/Commr Pierre-Yves Bourduas]

As you've indicated, indeed danger is a potential, but as a law enforcement community at large we strive to serve to the best of our capacity, to intervene if need be.

[Gord Brown, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville, ON]

Thank you.

Mr. Jolicoeur, how many people ran the border last year? I think you probably have a number on that.