Public Safety Committee on Feb. 1st, 2007

[Maria Mourani, Bloc, Ahuntsic, QC]

Fine. Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

Thank you.

We'll now—

[Maria Mourani, Bloc, Ahuntsic, QC]

Do I still have time to ask further questions, Mr. Chairman?

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

This is only a five-minute round and you've had five minutes.

[Maria Mourani, Bloc, Ahuntsic, QC]

All right. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

Mr. Norlock, please.

[Rick Norlock, Conservative, Northumberland—Quinte West, ON]

Thank you very much for attending today. It's very much appreciated.

One of the questions with regard to the arming of border guards and the use of force concerned highly populated areas. I think they were referred to as “plazas”.

To the deputy commissioner, in policing aren't the same issues taken into account? In other words, using a side arm as opposed to a high-powered rifle, you have to know that it will go through walls, material, so the police officer is trained. Would you not agree with me that police officers are trained to take that into account? So those issues with regard to high-populated areas would not only be of consideration to an armed border guard, but it would also be the same situation as is faced by a police officer in a similar circumstance.

[D/Commr Pierre-Yves Bourduas]

I agree wholeheartedly with your approach. The point is to protect the officer, but also, first and foremost, to protect the public. And that's the main focus of our intervention model. Whereas you have to factor in, in your arcs of fire, for instance, the risk that if you apply deadly force you have to stop the threat immediately in its tracks and not create additional damage. That is always factored into our decision-making process as peace officers and police officers in these types of interventions.

[Rick Norlock, Conservative, Northumberland—Quinte West, ON]

With regard to training CBSA officers, that would be included in the course curriculum to take into account those situations to make sure that they would be cognizant of their responsibility in the use of that tool, which is the firearm?

[D/Commr Pierre-Yves Bourduas]

Indeed, because that's the ultimate goal, given that these people are also our precious partners when it comes to securing our borders. We want to make sure that we apply the same types of training standards so that we're all on the same page, so to speak, when it comes to these types of interventions.

[Rick Norlock, Conservative, Northumberland—Quinte West, ON]

So for the layperson, what you're doing, based on some of the previous questions that you've been asked, is you're customizing your training to the needs of the client, in this case CBSA?

[D/Commr Pierre-Yves Bourduas]

That is correct. And it's done in full consultation, as I've indicated earlier, with our people from CBSA.

[Rick Norlock, Conservative, Northumberland—Quinte West, ON]

Just as you customize your training for the Department of Fisheries and Oceans officers vis-à-vis the requisites of their job, you would do so in the same way to CBSA to ensure that all the components of the training, all the possibilities of the use of that tool, which is the firearm, are taken into account.

[D/Commr Pierre-Yves Bourduas]

That's correct, bearing in mind that it's the full spectrum of intervention and that we have to consider all of these options before we get to this ultimate option.

[Rick Norlock, Conservative, Northumberland—Quinte West, ON]

Thank you.

When I was taking similar training on when to use a firearm and when not to use a firearm—it was quite some time ago—we were told that you begin with what we referred to as “verbal judo”. In other words, the first thing you use in officer safety is your mouth—your brain and your mouth.

[D/Commr Pierre-Yves Bourduas]

In fact, it's your uniform. When the officer gets there, even before the officer has verbal exchanges with the individuals, just the mere presence at times will pacify the situation. We take it from there. I agree with you that if your verbal intervention is the first one, then within the spectrum we progress from the verbal to just a slight touch, and then we move from that point on.

[Rick Norlock, Conservative, Northumberland—Quinte West, ON]

We referred to it as a use of force continuum, and you refer to it as—

[D/Commr Pierre-Yves Bourduas]

Exactly.

[Rick Norlock, Conservative, Northumberland—Quinte West, ON]

Okay.

[D/Commr Pierre-Yves Bourduas]

So you know what you're talking about.

[Rick Norlock, Conservative, Northumberland—Quinte West, ON]

This type of training, from a police perspective, would be exactly the same type of training that a CBSA officer would get?

[D/Commr Pierre-Yves Bourduas]

That's the type of training we're providing with CBSA, taking into account their role and their environment.

[Rick Norlock, Conservative, Northumberland—Quinte West, ON]

In your experience, does the RCMP use the train-the-trainer model in training, from depot right down to...? In the police force I belonged to at least, it's a yearly firearm qualification. In other words, with all the tools a police officer uses, they're trained frequently in the use of those tools, whether it be pepper spray, or use of the baton, or use of any other tool of the trade.

Does the RCMP use that training philosophy? You'd have dedicated personnel, but they would receive training: the trainers would receive training at depot, and then it would go on down, through the division to the detachment.

[D/Commr Pierre-Yves Bourduas]

That's correct. There are two key aspects here. You're talking about basic training and then about training the people who will train our members. What you have to bear in mind is re-certification, because the Canadian public has the right to have professional police officers who have the appropriate training.

In that vein, we want to ensure that our people are trained and refreshed on a regular basis, also taking into account the latest case law that would apply, and so on. It's all part of our full training package, and it's done on a regular basis, just to ensure that people remain proficient in the use of their firearm, bearing in mind also that it's the last resort.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

Could you make this your final comment.