Evidence of meeting #51 for Public Safety and National Security in the 39th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was you're.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Allan Kagedan  Chief, Security Policy - Aviation, Security and Emergency Preparedness, Department of Transport
Linda Savoie  Director, Access to Information, Privacy and Reconsideration, Executive Services, Department of Transport

11:05 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Garry Breitkreuz

I'd like to call this meeting to order. It's the Standing Committee on Public Safety and National Security, meeting number 51.

Before we hear from our witnesses, I'll just ask our media to vacate the room, please. There is one camera that will remain here.

This is a briefing on the no-fly list, and we have with us two witnesses from the Department of Transport. We'd like to welcome Mr. Allan Kagedan and Ms. Linda Savoie. We look forward to what you have to share with us and the discussion that will take place.

The usual practice is to have the witnesses give some opening remarks if they wish, and then we'll go to questions and comments.

Mr. Kagedan.

11:05 a.m.

Allan Kagedan Chief, Security Policy - Aviation, Security and Emergency Preparedness, Department of Transport

Thank you.

It is a great pleasure for me to address you this morning.

What I'd like to do is to express my thanks and the thanks of Transport Canada for the opportunity to discuss the program with you. The approach Transport Canada has taken is to describe publicly as much as possible the nature of the program, its objectives, and how it operates.

In fact, last week Transport Canada launched an Internet site, www.passengerprotect.gc.ca, dans les deux langues officielles and the idea there is to help Canadians understand the program, its requirements, and its purposes. Through transparency and discussion we get better and more effective programs. I have spent the last two years talking to Canadians from coast to coast about the program--to civil liberties groups, to groups of certain communities who feel they might be negatively affected by the program. I have spent a lot of time also with the Office of the Privacy Commissioner. And all that has been very helpful to us.

I'd just like to make certain remarks that relate to some issues that were raised last week here. First, I will begin with the point that our subject this morning is the program, but it's also aviation security. Aviation security remains an important concern for Canada, and it is with that goal of focusing ourselves on security of air passengers and, as we learned tragically in the events of 9/11, also the general public that we develop security programs. We do so in a manner to ensure that the programs have security value, are efficient, and match other Canadian values such as privacy protection.

What I'd like to do is focus for a few minutes on the question of effectiveness--I guess that was raised last week--and to make several points, maybe to elaborate on some points made last time.

When you look at security systems, you're looking at a complex system. You're not looking at one particular layer that is perfect in all respects and therefore can replace all other layers. Unfortunately, no one has found that perfect layer. No one has found that silver bullet. You need to overlay layers with other layers, and you do so with the intention that, taken together, they are stronger in their completeness than the individual parts. So we're looking at a layer and not an exclusive system unto itself.

I guess the point was made last time, because we were talking about identity, identification documents--there was a lot of discussion of those--that if someone wants to evade the system, they have to create a false identity. In general, although the program does apply both to flights between Canadian cities and international flights, the standard document used to travel internationally is a passport; and again, no documents are perfect, but the passport is among our strongest forms of identity, with some built-in security features that are always being improved. So that's one thing.

Another point to make is that the individuals we're concerned about--there aren't many of them, and that's a very good thing--are individuals who by their behaviour have demonstrated that they can pose a threat to a flight. Now, that means they're also individuals of interest to law enforcement and other organizations. Certainly one of the standard concerns of law enforcement and security organizations is to detect and look at false identification. That's absolutely one of the things they do. So the idea is that you're looking at a certain number of people--it's not a large number--and if their effort is made through false identification, well, that's part and parcel of the work of security organizations and intelligence organizations, to uncover that and try to address it. That's another point.

Another question that has been raised, as you know, is whether there have been studies showing effectiveness. Well, there's a bit of a methodological problem, and that is, if you look at various security systems, it's hard to study them because it's hard to prove a negative. When we lock our cars, do we know how many car thieves we've deterred? We don't. We're just happy that the car is still there and hasn't been stolen. On the other hand, we don't say we haven't had a study on how many car thieves this has deterred and on that basis decide not to lock our cars. So there is a bit of a methodological question.

I would also make the point that in this case, if you're looking at statistics, the statistics would be quite focused, because if a security system is able to deter one incident of the type that we're discussing, it will have paid for itself many hundreds of times over. That is the goal of security systems. The incidents we're talking about are extremely severe. We all know about those incidents, we remember those incidents.

So that's what you're looking at. If there's one time you can avoid that kind of situation, if we're fortunate enough to do so, it's a very significant matter.

In the absence of studies, what do we look to? We look to actions that have been taken in creating lists--watch lists, if you want--actions by governments, by industry, by the United Nations, by other institutions. The reason those actions have been taken is that they're seen by these entities to be effective.

That's the context in which I hope we discuss issues of effectiveness, that watch lists in a border control sense—clearly not in this sense, the program hasn't begun yet—have been able to prevent individuals with criminal backgrounds, with terrorist backgrounds, from entering countries. It's on that basis that watch list systems exist. If they had no effectiveness or no use, we wouldn't see any of them.

We also notice that we don't see countries moving away from them. We see an interest in those systems and pilot projects and others going forward to look at ways of improving and upgrading, so these systems do an effective job.

Thank you. Merci.

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Garry Breitkreuz

Thank you very much.

I look forward to the discussion. As normal, the practice here begins with the official opposition.

Ms. Barnes, please.

11:10 a.m.

Liberal

Sue Barnes Liberal London West, ON

Thank you.

I'll just confirm that the passenger protect program will start June 18.

11:10 a.m.

Chief, Security Policy - Aviation, Security and Emergency Preparedness, Department of Transport

Allan Kagedan

That's right.

11:10 a.m.

Liberal

Sue Barnes Liberal London West, ON

I'm not sure all my constituents go to Transport Canada's website, so what else have you done to inform Canadians?

11:10 a.m.

Chief, Security Policy - Aviation, Security and Emergency Preparedness, Department of Transport

Allan Kagedan

The program is based on the Public Safety Act, which was passed in 2004 after several years of discussion by Parliament and several years of study.

In October 2006, a regulation was published that outlines the program. At that time, the department publicized the program, it put background information on the Internet on how it would work, on those requirements, on the requirements for ID and the like. That was in October 2006.

What the department is doing currently is this. Newspaper ads were taken out across the country earlier this month, I believe on June 6 and 9. Other newspaper ads will be taken out next week. The newspaper ads were in English and French and in the aboriginal languages of the north. In addition, a lot of media have been around the program, and that has been helpful in getting the word out to people that the program is coming.

Additional advertising will go on, on radio and also on websites, travel websites and so on. Certainly air carriers have received material in the form of posters and other material. In fact, someone had the idea of creating little luggage tags that give information on the program.

Just to make the point in terms of impact, anyone who travels to the United States by air, or anywhere else, requires a passport, and that has been the case since January 23, 2007. So what we're looking at.... I mean, they're used to carrying passports that match and exceed the ID requirements of the program. There is concern about people flying between two Canadian cities, because the ID requirements there were not required by law. However, they were part and parcel of air travel as set forward as a good business practice by many air carrier companies.

11:10 a.m.

Liberal

Sue Barnes Liberal London West, ON

I have some other questions also. Are you doing any television ads?

11:10 a.m.

Chief, Security Policy - Aviation, Security and Emergency Preparedness, Department of Transport

Allan Kagedan

To my knowledge, it's not going to be on television. I guess the decisions were made by our people at communications and so on about what the most effective and widest reach would be.

11:10 a.m.

Liberal

Sue Barnes Liberal London West, ON

I am very concerned that most of my constituents flying this summer aren't aware of the repercussions for them. Is there any way somebody can check in advance of going to the airport to see whether they're on this list, so they don't have trouble with a potential business trip or a family vacation or any other flight?

Is there some way they can guard against having an incident at the airport that wouldn't be very conducive? I realize there's a real security issue we're all trying to address, but let's have this answer.

11:15 a.m.

Chief, Security Policy - Aviation, Security and Emergency Preparedness, Department of Transport

Allan Kagedan

Is there anything they could do? Again, the program as it's designed has certain guidelines; the guidelines are on the Internet. And I think you would agree with me that not many people would actually match these guidelines. We're talking about an individual who is or has been involved in a terrorist group and who can reasonably be suspected will endanger the security of any aircraft, the safety of the public; an individual who has been convicted of one or more serious and life-threatening crimes against aviation security, which would not speak to too many people out there, I don't think; an individual who has been convicted of one or more serious and life-threatening offences—a conviction, mind you—and who may attack or harm an air carrier, passengers, or crew members. On that basis, I wouldn't anticipate that many people will have problems this summer.

As for the question of saying who's on the list, this would defeat the purpose of the program. Clearly, if you reveal to someone like this, who is planning to do harm—

11:15 a.m.

Liberal

Sue Barnes Liberal London West, ON

Excuse me, is the short answer that there is no way they can determine in advance of arriving at the airport because there's no access to this list; it's a totally private list?

11:15 a.m.

Chief, Security Policy - Aviation, Security and Emergency Preparedness, Department of Transport

Allan Kagedan

It is a confidential list for their own security.

11:15 a.m.

Liberal

Sue Barnes Liberal London West, ON

Thank you.

I'm not worried so much about whether you think you're going to catch a terrorist with this list; I'm concerned about the person who goes there, because last week we were told that the 24/7 was for the airline to determine whether it was a match. It's the accidental upsets that are going to happen, and they happened with the other no-fly list in the States right now that we're certainly using at this point in time.

I just want to be clear. There is no way that someone whose identity has been mistaken, and it's said that that's the identity, has any way of changing the decision to board until they go through the reconsideration process, which you're saying, at this point in time, is a minimum of 30 days. That's your target, as I understand.

11:15 a.m.

Chief, Security Policy - Aviation, Security and Emergency Preparedness, Department of Transport

Allan Kagedan

Thank you.

The way this would work is that when someone arrives at the airport, they're required to bring ID. The purpose of that ID is to distinguish them from people who might be on the list, so on the fairly narrow chance that your name would match someone on the list...because the list itself has been constructed against very stringent guidelines, and in a very focused way; we have focused ourselves on creating this, we have learned lessons from around the world in doing that. You produce your ID, you distinguish yourself from that person on the list, and you get on the flight. There is no problem with that.

The situation you're talking about is the rather unlikely situation of one of these individuals whose name, gender, and date of birth and other information confirms that they are actually on the list. Then we're into another dimension, but that's a very different dimension, and that's something that I think would concern everyone on the flight and everyone living in that city, given the sort of incident we're talking about.

11:15 a.m.

Liberal

Sue Barnes Liberal London West, ON

Thank you.

Who do you share your lists with? When somebody is on the list, and say it is a mistaken identity and you've refused boarding...those lists are already out there and they've obviously been shared with other airlines from other jurisdictions. How many jurisdictions have no-fly lists, currently, besides the States?

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Garry Breitkreuz

That will be your final question.

11:15 a.m.

Liberal

Sue Barnes Liberal London West, ON

I'll come back for another round, because there are a lot of questions.

11:15 a.m.

Chief, Security Policy - Aviation, Security and Emergency Preparedness, Department of Transport

Allan Kagedan

I'll just try to answer who we're sharing it with. If you want to keep these sorts of individuals off a plane, you have to tell the people who control who gets on a plane who they are. That's how you do it. Otherwise you can't do it. You have to get the right security information, the right people, at the right time to be effective; otherwise you've lost the game. In terrorism, there are no second chances. It's a preventive type of measure.

We do share it with air carriers. Our regulation specifies that they are not permitted to share the information with anyone else. In addition to that, we're having them sign a memorandum of understanding that goes into greater detail about protecting the privacy and security of the list and that meets both privacy and security concerns. That sharing is necessary, balanced against the concern for public safety and security of person that is a basic human right. We are sharing, but with that aim in mind, and we're putting stringent conditions on any disclosure of that information any direction beyond that.

11:20 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Garry Breitkreuz

Thank you.

On that point, you are only making this list available where the crossing is by air. It is not any other border crossing that this list will be shared with.

11:20 a.m.

Chief, Security Policy - Aviation, Security and Emergency Preparedness, Department of Transport

Allan Kagedan

That's right, aviation.

11:20 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Garry Breitkreuz

Monsieur Ménard.

11:20 a.m.

Bloc

Serge Ménard Bloc Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

The first thing that intrigues me in setting up this system, and its most important element, is obviously how the list is drawn up. The rest is really administrative. Who, in the government, is most able to determine who is a risk to aviation in Canada, whether because the individual has been a terrorist or is connected with terrorist movements, or has been convicted? I do not think that it is the Department of Transport. I have complete confidence in the Department of Transport for determining what makes an airplane capable of flying safely and preventing accidents. However, who has the expertise, in the Department of Transport, to determine who is a safety risk? Is it really not up to the Department of Public Safety to do that?

11:20 a.m.

Chief, Security Policy - Aviation, Security and Emergency Preparedness, Department of Transport

Allan Kagedan

I guess the point here—and I appreciate the question—is how decisions are made. It's a very difficult decision, because what you're trying to do is look at behaviour, at activity, and then try to make an assessment beyond that.

What Transport Canada has is an advisory group that consists exactly of members of those organizations—namely, the RCMP and CSIS—with the expertise in criminal matters and national security matters to help advise us. Transport Canada, though, also has expertise. We know about aircraft. We know how they're built. We know how thick the skins of aircraft are. We know something about aircraft and how they operate. We add that because the total decision relates to the individual, relates to their behaviour, relates to intent, and relates to existing security measures and transportation security, and the physical existence of the aircraft. You're bringing together several types of expertise to make this important decision that could have important consequences for a very small number of individuals.

11:20 a.m.

Bloc

Serge Ménard Bloc Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC

We could discuss this at length, but I will move on to something else. It seems to me that anyone can understand that an airplane is a fragile vehicle. It seems to me that the essential aspect of the expertise needed relates to security rather than transport. However, you are not the one who decided this.

With respect to the questions raised last time, you said that it was very difficult to prove a negative. In terms of our concerns, I think that you are really looking in the wrong place. You should have looked where proof of the positive exists. The proof of the positive is the terrorist incidents or attacks that have occurred. We are certain that they have occurred. We can ascertain whether the people who committed them had characteristics from which we could have predicted that they were a danger.

I do not know whether studies like those exist; myself, I do not know. It seems that the people who came before you also did not know. What we generally know, in the public, is that there was not much about the people responsible for the events of September 11 that would have put them on the list, nor was there about the person who claimed to have explosives in his heels, and so on.

Did you look only for negative proof, or did you look where positive proof can be established?