Public Safety Committee on June 10th, 2008

[Ujjal Dosanjh, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

I appreciate that. Here is the question. You say that you are familiar with Ms. Couillard. Can you then confirm, in the usual police language, that she was known to the RCMP?

[A/Commr Raf Souccar]

You say known to the RCMP. Could you perhaps define a little more what you mean by known to the RCMP?

[Ujjal Dosanjh, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

I think I would like you to define what you mean when you say that someone is known to the RCMP.

[A/Commr Raf Souccar]

My answer to the initial question was that I am familiar with this matter. I am familiar with Ms. Couillard. However, to talk about what exactly I am familiar with, the content of my familiarity—

[Ujjal Dosanjh, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

I'm not asking you to tell me why you're familiar with her. I'm asking you to answer the question of whether, before this matter broke in the news, she was known to the RCMP.

[A/Commr Raf Souccar]

Yes, she was.

[Ujjal Dosanjh, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

Thank you.

I will not ask you how much the RCMP knew about her. With all of what's now in the public domain, whether or not she was under surveillance at some point, whether or not she had links with organized crime, the mob, the bikers, did it raise any red flags with the RCMP when she publicly began to associate with the Minister of Foreign Affairs?

[A/Commr Raf Souccar]

Once again, to tell you whether or not this raised red flags, individuals, especially ministers, associate with a number of people by virtue of their job: constituents, etc. What we do when something of concern comes to us is we check for relevancy, reliability, and accuracy, and determine what, if anything, needs to be done at that point.

[Ujjal Dosanjh, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

Would you agree that it would be relevant for Canadians for you to look into the Couillard-Bernier matter if you knew that she was associating with him and she had, at least in the past, recent past, links with the mob or the bikers? Would you think that would be relevant?

[A/Commr Raf Souccar]

Yes, that would be relevant.

[Ujjal Dosanjh, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

Let me ask you another question.

You now know, at least I know from the public domain, and some of the allegations may be true or not true—you may have heard Mr. Juneau-Katsuya—that there has been a national security breach with respect to the secret documents.

I have two questions for you. One, having learned that from the CSIS expert and having known all the facts, would the RCMP conduct an investigation to determine whether or not a criminal offence occurred in this matter?

[A/Commr Raf Souccar]

Again, whether or not we conduct a criminal investigation would be inappropriate for me to talk about at this point. To tell you whether or not we would conduct a criminal investigation, whether we have, whether we are, or whether we will in the future, could compromise the integrity of anything that we have done or will do.

[Chief Superintendent Bob Paulson, Chief Superintendent and Acting Assistant Commissioner, National Security Criminal Investigations, Royal Canadian Mounted Police]

Might I add something to that? I think it's important to point out, without speaking to the specific incident case, that where the RCMP becomes aware, either through the complaints of civilians or members of the community, or anybody else for that matter, that there is a possible infraction, a criminal infraction, where there is reason to suspect that a criminal offence has taken place, we would investigate that and report our findings to a court, ultimately, for disposition. But we would not want to speak, because as the deputy pointed out, we would not want to compromise that investigation or any investigation in the future.

[Ujjal Dosanjh, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

No, I understand.

Let me ask you, then, to follow up on that, do you now believe, based on what you may know from your own files and from the public domain, that there are reasonable grounds to conduct a criminal investigation in this matter, that an offence may have occurred?

[C/Supt Bob Paulson]

If I might—

[Ujjal Dosanjh, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

And I have one more question.

[C/Supt Bob Paulson]

—I just want to direct your mind back to the preamble in your last question, where you talked about getting to know all the facts. It's important to have a full understanding of what all the facts are.

With respect, I wasn't here when the previous witness spoke. I saw some of it on TV. I think he went to some lengths to try to condition his responses based on the public reporting of some of these things that have gone on. So it's very important for us in the police to be mindful of the facts, to respect the notion of evidence, and to proceed in that manner.

[Ujjal Dosanjh, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

I have one more question.

Has the RCMP had any role in the Couillard-Bernier matter to date, including the handling of the secret documents?

[A/Commr Raf Souccar]

Once again, you're specifically asking us with respect to our role on a very specific matter. What I'm suggesting to you, Mr. Dosanjh, is that whether or not we've had any role to date would be inappropriate for me to comment on, as it may affect the integrity of what it is that we may have or will be doing.

[Ujjal Dosanjh, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

Let me narrow it for you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

That will be your final question.

[Ujjal Dosanjh, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

Have you had any role in the handling of the secret documents once someone became aware that they were in the possession of Ms. Couillard? Were you involved in bringing them back to the Department of Foreign Affairs? Were you involved in looking at them? Were you involved in taking them to the PCO-PMO?

[A/Commr Raf Souccar]

No.

[Ujjal Dosanjh, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

To all those questions the answer is no?

[A/Commr Raf Souccar]

That's correct.