Evidence of meeting #4 for Public Safety and National Security in the 40th Parliament, 3rd session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was needs.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Liberal
Bloc
Maria Mourani Bloc Ahuntsic, QC
I have a brief question on administrative segregation. During our tour, we talked to various caseworkers. Many of them told us that the use of segregation in mental health cases was not really a good idea. I was speaking with the chaplain at the SHU, I believe. He told me that, on the one hand, segregation was a disaster for individuals with mental health problems, because it aggravated those problems. Sometimes individuals arrived at the SHU without any mental health problems but after a while went crazy. That's what he told me. When I questioned the psychiatrist who was there, she hesitated on that point.
I would like to know whether Ms. Perreault, who deals with the psychologists and psychiatrists, and Ms. Vallée can tell me whether segregation is really effective in treatment terms.
Regional Coordinator, Institutional Mental Health, Quebec Region, Correctional Service Canada
Your question is very complex. You just mentioned the SHU. Currently, there are 20 offenders in administrative segregation at the Special Handling Unit and two of them have mental health problems. Segregation, the removal of stimulation, is a significant contextual variable which can contribute to the disorganization of certain individuals who have mental health needs. However, that helps other individuals.
We're working on this issue, and the number of offenders who have mental health needs and who wind up in administrative segregation is falling. There's a decline. As a result of new mental health services being put in place in the regular institutions, we are working against the use of administrative segregation as a way of solving problems. Instead we are working on a different therapeutic proposal. The idea is to provide mental health nursing care. The psychological approach and participation of the parole officer are combined in this case. Currently, the number of individuals who are in administrative segregation because they have mental health problems is declining. That's one of our goals.
Regional Coordinator, Institutional Mental Health, Quebec Region, Correctional Service Canada
The Institutional Mental Health Initiative is two years old. It's a gradual decline.
Deputy Commissioner, Quebec Region, Correctional Service Canada
I'd like to add something. We can see the contribution of the Institutional Mental Health Initiative. It was adopted in 2005 or 2006, but the resources appeared later. It in fact took time to hire and train the staff and develop a genuine multidisciplinary team spirit. Now we're seeing very concrete results, including this.
Bloc
Maria Mourani Bloc Ahuntsic, QC
If I understand correctly, you are working from the assumption that a person suffering from mental health problems must be segregated as little as possible. That is why you established this Initiative.
Regional Coordinator, Institutional Mental Health, Quebec Region, Correctional Service Canada
That is indeed one of the expected results. There are many others, such as adherence to treatment, better understanding of the illness, better symptom management and so on. The fact that individuals are no longer confined in administrative segregation because they have mental health problems is definitely one of the desired objectives. We are gradually achieving it. Administrative segregation is not where they should be. It is not a quiet place, like a spa. You're not comfortable there. And yet, certain individuals in administrative segregation did not want to come out because their mental health problems were comfortable. In the case of other individuals, it had a totally disorganizing effect. That is why I say that we can't say it's good; it depends on the case. However, now that offenders are breaking the administrative segregation cycle because they have mental health problems, they no longer want to return there because they have found another type of structure; they've found help.
Bloc
Maria Mourani Bloc Ahuntsic, QC
Is this typically Quebecois or is this the way it is in the entire Canadian system?
Regional Coordinator, Institutional Mental Health, Quebec Region, Correctional Service Canada
It's a pan-Canadian trend to seek refuge in administrative segregation in order to manage one's symptoms and go unnoticed so that people leave you alone.
Regional Coordinator, Institutional Mental Health, Quebec Region, Correctional Service Canada
Yes, it's pan-Canadian, with the same objectives.
Bloc
Maria Mourani Bloc Ahuntsic, QC
One of those objectives, in particular, is for there to be as few segregation cases as possible.
Regional Coordinator, Institutional Mental Health, Quebec Region, Correctional Service Canada
That's one of the effects we want to see. In fact, it's an objective. It's one of the direct effects that correctional officers can see: less use of force and less confinement in administrative segregation for those people. That's one of the preventive effects that we can see in short order.
Bloc
Maria Mourani Bloc Ahuntsic, QC
How do you go about administering the act you have to administer, and the Quebec health legislation? You have to administer two acts, if I'm not mistaken. How do you do that?
Regional Coordinator, Institutional Mental Health, Quebec Region, Correctional Service Canada
We can't answer that question in five minutes. From the moment someone is no longer capable of consenting to treatment, is no longer right in his mind and cannot consent to treatment, the provincial act applies. At that point the doctors, psychiatrists and psychologists have other professional duties. As long as someone is capable of consent, has his mind intact, and refuses treatment, we can continue all our practices. However, when someone no longer has that capability, the provincial legislation comes into play. It's a very complex issue.
Conservative
Rick Norlock Conservative Northumberland—Quinte West, ON
Thank you very much, Mr. Chair, and thank you to the witnesses for coming.
I have a few different questions in different areas. The first is that we had a witness here not too long ago, a very fine witness who has settled a lot of her addiction issues and is of value in helping other people in similar circumstances. I was intrigued when we spoke to her about methadone and the methadone treatment and she said one of the reasons she became addicted to heroin was her use of methadone. I just wondered if you had similar experiences. What's your experience with methadone and this treatment, and have you seen that sort of reverse of the norm in your institution?
Regional Coordinator, Institutional Mental Health, Quebec Region, Correctional Service Canada
I will have to get back to you on this. Sorry, I don't have that kind of information.
Conservative
Deputy Commissioner, Quebec Region, Correctional Service Canada
We use methadone, but we cannot answer your question.
Conservative
