Public Safety Committee on Dec. 8th, 2010

[Mark Holland, Liberal, Ajax—Pickering, ON]

I'm looking here at Mr. Fadden's testimony. He said:

In essence, I told her that CSIS was dealing with some cases of foreign interference, that I thought provincial politicians might be involved and that we were about to wrap up matters.

He went on to say:

I asked her to think about the issue and to let me know what the procedure would be if, after closing our files, the government decided to go forward with the matter.

Are you saying that the decision to not go forward with the matter was yours? Given the fact that there's this huge cloud of suspicion hanging over the communities, did you recommend that this issue at least be expunged or that there be some statement out there so that these communities wouldn't have suspicion hanging over their heads?

If the decision was made to not proceed with it, and it was yours and yours alone, what about advice or any conversations you would have had about expunging this rumour that was hanging like a cloud of suspicion over so many Canadian communities?

[Marie-Lucie Morin]

First of all, Mr. Chairman, I don't quite understand the point about proceeding or not proceeding, but let me address the point about the communities--

[Mark Holland, Liberal, Ajax—Pickering, ON]

Let me clarify, then.

Mr. Fadden, in his testimony, said that he had a conversation. He felt these matters should be pursued. He felt there were politicians who were under the influence of foreign governments. That's a pretty explosive allegation. He said that he asked for direction from you about how it should be proceeded with. Are you telling me that you took that nowhere, that It ended with you, that you had no conversations with any ministers? Did you have no conversations with the Prime Minister or anyone in the Prime Minister's Office?

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Let me just make mention of procedure here, because we are dealing with our national security and with the national security advisor to the Prime Minister.

I will quote from our procedure book. It says:

The obligation of a witness to answer all questions put by the committee must be balanced against the role that public servants play in providing confidential advice to their Ministers.

It goes on and talks about the importance of maintaining both.

I would just—

[Mark Holland, Liberal, Ajax—Pickering, ON]

Mr. Chair, on that point specifically--and please pause my time--

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

We are asking for that.

[Mark Holland, Liberal, Ajax—Pickering, ON]

Mr. Chair, on that point specifically, the response was not that it was privileged; the response was that there was no conversation, and obviously Madame Morin is free to say whatever she likes.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

I will give you extra time there, Mr. Holland.

[Marie-Lucie Morin]

Mr. Chair, I would like to address the point about the communities, because this is....

[Mark Holland, Liberal, Ajax—Pickering, ON]

Can we go to that first point first, please? Again, it's an explosive allegation that there are politicians who are under the influence of foreign governments. He took it to you. His comment to this committee was that he was seeking direction as to what he should do, or what should happen with the file. Are you saying that you, and you alone, made the decision to not proceed any further with the matter?

[Marie-Lucie Morin]

Mr. Chair, when Mr. Fadden approached me in the manner of a “heads-up” early in the year, he was seeking direction, as I recall, on process. He wanted to know how we proceed when we have those kinds of cases, and I believe that when time passed, we did talk about process. That's all I will say about it.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Thank you, Ms. Morin.

We'll now go to Madame Mourani. Vous disposez de sept minutes.

[Maria Mourani, Bloc, Ahuntsic, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair. Now you're speaking French. That's nice.

Good afternoon, Ms. Morin. Thank you for being here today. I have a number of quick questions for you. First, when CSIS employees speak to the media, are you the one who authorizes the interviews and talking points?

[Marie-Lucie Morin]

The Minister of Public Safety is accountable for CSIS, and authorization for media appearances goes more through him. That being said, the director or agency heads very often send us a copy of the speech, sometimes in advance, but strictly out of courtesy.

[Maria Mourani, Bloc, Ahuntsic, QC]

At the end of the day, it's the Minister of Public Safety's office that authorizes media appearances, that reviews the talking points with CSIS employees, and that also informs you about it.

[Marie-Lucie Morin]

I would say that's how it works, generally speaking.

[Maria Mourani, Bloc, Ahuntsic, QC]

As far as you know, can CSIS employees take the liberty of speaking to the media but without agreeing to do an interview, and roll out media lines that haven't been validated by the Minister of Public Safety's office? Can they do that?

[Marie-Lucie Morin]

In this case, my understanding is that Mr. Fadden's interview was part of a documentary that looked at CSIS through its 25-year history. So I would assume that the authorities gave their consent.

[Maria Mourani, Bloc, Ahuntsic, QC]

If I understand it correctly, Mr. Fadden could not have taken part in the CBC interview without the consent of his superior, which is ultimately the minister's office.

[Marie-Lucie Morin]

I wouldn't want to say something so absolute. However, I would say that that should be the general practice.

[Maria Mourani, Bloc, Ahuntsic, QC]

Also, because the interview was authorized, the talking points would have been established in collaboration with the minister's office.

[Marie-Lucie Morin]

When we grant an interview, we probably won't know in advance what questions will be asked.

[Maria Mourani, Bloc, Ahuntsic, QC]

Well, you have some idea.

[Marie-Lucie Morin]

Not necessarily. It really depends on what's going on, what has happened and on the interviewer's objectives, obviously. You know, there's a difference between an authorization that I would call "general" and an authorization that is extremely specific.

[Maria Mourani, Bloc, Ahuntsic, QC]

Thank you.

I have another question. Was it when Mr. Fadden's interview was broadcast—and I'm not talking about when it was taped, but when it was shown on television—that you, like everyone else, found out that two ministers in two provinces and elected officials from British Columbia had apparently been agents of influence to foreign countries like China, according to Mr. Fadden's allegations? Or did you know about that beforehand?