Public Safety Committee on Dec. 8th, 2010

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Madam Morin, let me also read from our committee book, just to enlarge on this matter. I will give you extra time so that my clerk can take a look at that.

The O'Brien book says:...committees ordinarily accept the reasons that a public servant gives for declining to answer a specific question or series of questions which involve the giving of a legal opinion, which may be perceived as a conflict with the witness' responsibility to the Minister, which are outside of their own area of responsibility, or which might affect business transactions.

Those are the ones listed. I'm not certain if any of those would apply to you, Mr. Davies, but let me say to you and to our witness that we will leave it up to you as to the questions you choose to answer and not answer, based on that.

Go ahead, Madame Mourani.

[Maria Mourani, Bloc, Ahuntsic, QC]

Mr. Chair, thank you for addressing this matter. I quite openly admit that the questions we're asking… We aren't asking for names; we're talking about public matters. I asked the question and didn't even get a response. We are asking when Mr. Fadden submitted this report. He said himself that he was going to submit it. We aren't making things up; it's all public.

Was she already aware that Mr. Fadden was going to reveal this information to the media?

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Okay, I'll take that--

[Maria Mourani, Bloc, Ahuntsic, QC]

We aren't talking about national security things; we aren't asking where our missiles are located or, I don't know, where our satellites are. I find this unacceptable! We're here, we want answers, but we're pretty responsible about not asking questions that are going to compromise national security. Don't tell me that knowing when Mr. Fadden submitted his report is a national security issue. This is a matter of transparency, Mr. Chair, and it's not the same thing. Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Thank you, Madame Mourani. Mr. Holland, is this on the same point of order?

Continue, Mr. Davies, and we'll add another....

Please continue.

[Don Davies, NDP, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I will be sensitive to those strictures, but with reference to the question of when you were informed of this, and in light of what I'm going to say, I think you'll see that Mr. Fadden himself talked about this. I'm asking when he informed you that he had these concerns. That's the only question I'm asking you.

[Marie-Lucie Morin]

The specific concerns are...?

[Don Davies, NDP, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

The concerns that two cabinet ministers and a municipal politician in British Columbia were under the influence of foreign governments.

[Marie-Lucie Morin]

I will go back to Mr. Fadden's testimony. Mr. Fadden gave me a heads-up early in 2010 that he was following some cases. After that he proceeded with his work, and that was it.

[Don Davies, NDP, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

Okay. I'm going to quote again from Mr. Fadden's CBC interview with Mr. Mansbridge.

Mr. Mansbridge said:

Well, you know, I understand the problem, but the director of CSIS suggesting that there are politicians in this country and now public servants as well, you're suggesting, without naming them will raise a few eyebrows. In fact, you know, if I was a provincial cabinet minister, I would say, “Hey, who are you talking about? Because you're swiping us all with this.”

Then Mr. Fadden said:

Mm-hmm. I think that's fair, and we just don't keep the information to ourselves. In the case of the couple of cabinet ministers, we're in the process of discussing with the centre how we're going to inform those provinces.

Then Mr. Mansbridge said:

The centre being?

Then Mr. Fadden said:

Sorry, the Privy Council Office, the Prime Minister's department, try and get a sense of how we would best let them know that there may be a problem.

I took Mr. Fadden's comments to mean that he was in the process of discussing his concerns with the Privy Council Office. At the time Mr. Fadden made these comments, was that in fact the case?

[Marie-Lucie Morin]

Mr. Fadden gave me the heads-up in January, and I will repeat that it was very much in the context of how we were going to eventually deal with the cases. We have to have procedures in place, and that was the essence of the conversation I had with him--

[Don Davies, NDP, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

Okay. That was in January. On June 23, 2010, within a day or two of the CBC interview being aired, Mr. Fadden released the following statement. He said: “I have not apprised the Privy Council Office of the cases I mentioned in the interview on CBC”. Is that the case? From January to June, he, the head of CSIS, didn't apprise you of any of the cases?

[Marie-Lucie Morin]

From January to June the director did not apprise us of specific cases.

[Don Davies, NDP, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

Okay.

Mr. Fadden repeatedly singled out China in his comments. This is a quote from him:They're funding Confucius institutes in most of the campuses across Canada. They fund them. They're sort of managed by people who are operating out of the embassy or consulates. Nobody knows that the Chinese authorities are involved. They organize demonstrations against... they have organized demonstrations against the Canadian government in respect to some of our policies concerning China. They've organized demonstrations to deal with what are called the five poisons: Taiwan, Falun Gong, and others.

These comments were aired the day before President Hu arrived in Canada. The effect of these comments specifying China was to smear every single Chinese Canadian by questioning their loyalty to Canada. This is what they're telling me in Vancouver.

I'm asking you whether you acknowledge that there was pain felt by the Chinese Canadian community in this country and whether you agree that an apology to those people for questioning their loyalty is in order.

[Marie-Lucie Morin]

Mr. Chairman, I would take exception to the concept that we are questioning the loyalty of any group of Canadians when we talk about foreign interference. In fact, to the extent that these activities are conducted, I would argue that the communities are a victim and in fact should not feel targeted.

[Don Davies, NDP, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

Fair enough.

This is my final question. You worked as national security advisor to the Prime Minister. Did you inform him of Mr. Fadden's concerns, and if so, can you give us any general position on what the Prime Minister's reaction was to Mr. Fadden's allegations?

[Marie-Lucie Morin]

Mr. Chair, I don't think it's appropriate for me to discuss advice I might or--

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

All right.

Thank you very much, then, Ms. Morin.

Now we'll move to Mr. MacKenzie.

[Dave MacKenzie, Conservative, Oxford, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you, Ms. Morin, for being here today. We appreciate your taking time out of your schedule. I'm sure it's quite busy.

I had an opportunity to look at your biography before you came here today, and I'd like to congratulate you for what you've done for Canada. I'd just like to go through a little of it, so that people understand your background.

You're currently with the World Bank, and we certainly congratulate you on that appointment. That's a real coup for Canada and for you as an individual. In your recent appointment, you represent not only Canada, but also Antigua, The Bahamas, Barbados, Belize, Dominica, Grenada, Guyana, Ireland, Jamaica, St. Kitts and Nevis--a number of countries. It's fair to say that it's a broad base there.

You were appointed as national security advisor to the Prime Minister and associate secretary to the cabinet on November 17, 2008. From April 2006 to November 2008, you served as deputy minister for international trade, and from December 2003 to April 2006 as associate deputy minister of foreign affairs. Prior to that, you held the post of assistant deputy minister, international business and trade, chief trade commissioner. You held the position of director general, international business development, policy and planning, from September 2001 to September 2003.

I see here that you've also had extensive experience outside the country, having been in San Francisco from 1981 to 1984; in Jakarta, 1984 to 1986; in London, 1986 to 1990; and in Moscow, in 1994 and 1997. In 1997 you were appointed as Canada's ambassador to the Kingdom of Norway, with concurrent accreditation to the Republic of Iceland--

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Go ahead, Mr. Holland, on a point of order, please.

[Mark Holland, Liberal, Ajax—Pickering, ON]

We're all moved by the intervention of Mr. MacKenzie, and we obviously commend Madame Morin on an excellent resumé, but I'm wondering what pertinence this has to the matter at hand.

[Dave MacKenzie, Conservative, Oxford, ON]

I'd just like to enlighten and inform the members opposite that this witness is well skilled and has had a wealth of information in dealing with foreign countries. That's what you people wanted her here for. She's here to tell you that she has, or we're here to certainly offer that she has a wealth of experience dealing with foreign countries.

[Mark Holland, Liberal, Ajax—Pickering, ON]

Get to the point of asking her a question.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Continue, Mr.--

[Dave MacKenzie, Conservative, Oxford, ON]

Most people have been reluctant to let her answer. That's the problem.