Public Safety Committee on Dec. 8th, 2010

[Marie-Lucie Morin]

I will say it again, Mr. Chair: it is clear that the phenomenon of foreign interference or influence is in no way something new. It has even been documented in CSIS's past annual reports. Really, it has been documented since the mid-1980s.

[Maria Mourani, Bloc, Ahuntsic, QC]

As for these very specific cases, did the Prime Minister's Office know about it or did you learn about it sort of like everyone else? I'm not talking about the phenomenon of foreign influence, but rather of these two famous provincial ministers and these elected municipal officials. Mr. Fadden knows who they are. Did he fill you in?

[Marie-Lucie Morin]

Mr. Chair, I would prefer to not talk about particular cases, if possible, and to stick simply to saying that we are well aware of the phenomenon of foreign influence.

[Maria Mourani, Bloc, Ahuntsic, QC]

You aren't answering my question. I didn't ask you to give me names; I simply asked you if you were already aware of what we learned about on television or if you learned about it when you saw it on TV.

[Marie-Lucie Morin]

I'll repeat that I was fully aware of the phenomenon, and I would prefer not to comment on the specific cases.

[Maria Mourani, Bloc, Ahuntsic, QC]

Mr. Fadden told us that he gave the minister and, therefore the Privy Council Office as well, his report containing precisely those famous specific cases. Did he, in fact, submit a report?

[Marie-Lucie Morin]

Mr. Fadden told the committee when he appeared, I think it was on July 5, that he was going to submit a report, which he did.

[Maria Mourani, Bloc, Ahuntsic, QC]

In your practice, did you find it a little unusual that a head of CSIS took the liberty of speaking to CBC about those topics, about those ministers, to throw around allegations like that without giving names? Did you find that normal? As a security advisor, did you not find it a little strange that a head of CSIS would allow himself to tell the media that there were apparently two ministers and some elected municipal officials under foreign influence?

[Marie-Lucie Morin]

Mr. Chair, I think the director explained himself to the committee. He shared with committee members the circumstances that resulted in his comments being reported in the media. I don't really have much more to add to what he said.

[Maria Mourani, Bloc, Ahuntsic, QC]

As an advisor—you no longer are—but as someone who has been in that position, do you think that Canada would be well served by a head of CSIS who dallies with the media and discredits politicians?

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Thank you, Madam Mourani. Your time is up, but if there is any futher answer to that, I will take the answer.

[Marie-Lucie Morin]

First, I think Mr. Fadden did not cast a shadow on politicians, if that's your question.

Also, once again, I think that he explained himself fully to the committee. Moreover, if I remember correctly, he had said that he regretted the lack of clarity in his comments.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Thank you, Madam Morin.

We'll now move to Mr. Davies, please. You have seven minutes.

[Don Davies, NDP, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thank you, Madame Morin, for appearing before us. We have asked the Minister of Public Safety to appear before this committee to answer questions on this subject, and he refused to come, so I appreciate your being here to subject yourself to questions.

I want to start with a quick item. Mr. Fadden, when he was at this committee on July 5, said he would give his report to the Minister of Public Safety within 30 days.

Did he in fact do that within 30 days?

[Marie-Lucie Morin]

Honestly, Mr. Chairman, I would not have a--

[Don Davies, NDP, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

When did you get the report?

[Marie-Lucie Morin]

—recollection. I don't have a recollection of exactly when I would have been briefed.

[Don Davies, NDP, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

I want to go back to what Mr. Fadden said. On public television, he said:There are several municipal politicians in British Columbia and in at least two provinces there are ministers of the crown who we think are under at least the general influence of a foreign government.

He said:In the case of these individuals, it's developed over the years. They haven't really hidden their association, but what surprised us is that it's been so extensive over the years, and we're now seeing, in a couple of cases, indications that they are, in fact, shifting their public policies as a reflection of that involvement with that particular country.

I think this gives a flavour of the explosiveness of these comments. He basically accused elected officials in this country of doing the bidding of foreign governments. It's a form of treason, in a sense.

My first question to you is this: when did you become aware that the head of CSIS, Mr. Fadden, had formed a belief that politicians in Canada were under the influence of foreign governments?

[Marie-Lucie Morin]

First of all, Mr. Chairman, I take exception to the use of the word “treason”. I do not believe at all that it applies to the concept of foreign interference.

I want to go back to what I said earlier. The phenomenon is not new. There is a reason that the idea that CSIS should be mindful of this vulnerability was provided for in the act in 1984. It is also not unique to Canada. I would like--

[Don Davies, NDP, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

Madame Morin, I'm sorry, but I asked when you became aware.

[Marie-Lucie Morin]

I will not discuss specific cases, Mr. Chair.

[Don Davies, NDP, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

I'm not asking you to discuss. I'm asking you when you became aware of Mr. Fadden's actions. You were the national security advisor, were you not?

[Marie-Lucie Morin]

I was a national security advisor until November 1 of this year, indeed.

[Don Davies, NDP, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

When did you become aware that the head of CSIS was of the belief that certain politicians in this country were under the influence of foreign governments? It's a simple question: when?

[Marie-Lucie Morin]

Mr. Chairman--