Public Safety Committee on March 25th, 2010

[Maria Mourani, Bloc, Ahuntsic, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Allow me to resume. I understand that the government — as many governments do every four years — carried out its analysis and decided that prison farms were not useful programs that are important to maintain.

I am familiar with Correctional Service Canada. I worked there and I hold in high esteem the people who work there. I know that all of the internal decisions that you are called upon to make are based on facts, concepts and directives. This is why I am having so much difficulty understanding how a decision such as this one could have simply fallen from the sky, without there being any analysis nor statistics.

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Mark Holland]

Madam Mourani...

[Maria Mourani, Bloc, Ahuntsic, QC]

I would simply like to finish. I wish to thank you, Mr. Toller, for your frankness and honesty. I unfortunately observe that this is not a decision of Correctional Service Canada, but rather a revision on the part of the Conservative government.

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Mark Holland]

There's time for an extremely brief response, if you choose. No? Then we'll go Mr. Davies for five minutes, please.

[Don Davies, NDP, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I have a theory. My theory is that this land, when the farms close, will be sold, or it will be used to build additional prison space. Has this been discussed in any discussions you've had with anybody in Corrections or with the ministry?

[Ross Toller]

Not at all. In fact I'd like to say, actually, that there is absolutely no planning, no future determination of the land use.

[Don Davies, NDP, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

I'm reading from some notes prepared for us. This note says:

The independent review of the estimated cost of constructing and operating a new correctional facility conducted at the request of the Correctional Service of Canada Review Panel found that the resale value of property would be $2 million for Joyceville/Pittsburgh (from the sale of farmland) and $17 million for regional headquarters.

Does that not directly contradict what you just said?

[Ross Toller]

No, not at all. That was an illustrative example that I think you're referring to from this particular document, “A Roadmap to Strengthening Public Safety”. It's actually contained in a number of the annexes in which they looked at reinvestment feasibilities, but again, no decisions have been made whatsoever.

[Don Davies, NDP, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

I didn't ask about decisions. I asked if it had been discussed. Has it been discussed?

[Ross Toller]

It has not been discussed with me.

[Don Davies, NDP, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

Oh, it was not with you.

[Ross Toller]

In the panel report there were discussions, obviously, for illustrative purposes.

[Don Davies, NDP, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

I see.

There's something I want to quickly bring up. I think I've heard a couple of fundamental flaws expressed here today that I'd like to clear up, in my mind, anyway. One is that it's not the purpose of the prison farm program to put people directly in agricultural jobs, is it? It's one program that teaches a wide array of skills that could lead to employment in other related occupations, occupations other than agriculture. It's not exclusively to put a farm worker onto a farm, is it?

[Ross Toller]

All our programs are designed to create levels of employability. That's why we look at the markets available for jobs out in the community.

[Don Davies, NDP, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

Another flaw I've heard--and I won't spend too much time on this--is that Ms. Glover talked about $14 million for 14 jobs. I think there's a bit of voodoo economics going on there, because I've heard Mr. Sargent say you don't track exactly where the people go once they leave Corrections.

It's possible that people who went through the prison farm program did get employment, but just not in direct agricultural jobs. Is that possible?

[Ross Toller]

That is possible, yes.

[Don Davies, NDP, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

Then it's true that more than 14 people who went through the prison farm program got jobs. That's a certainty, isn't it?

[Ross Toller]

Well, it actually refers to job availability in certain sectors. That's why I say we don't have the data on that. What we do know is that the sectors, in terms of agriculture, are not in the hiring business right now.

[Don Davies, NDP, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

Let me ask this: you don't have too many vocational skills training programs in the federal corrections system at present, do you?

[Ross Toller]

Well, actually, we have a number. Yes, we have hairdressing, culinary, food, welding, carpentry--

[Don Davies, NDP, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

Can you stop? I'm sorry, I know I'm sounding rude by cutting you off, but it's just that I have limited time and I had asked you another question. I didn't ask you to list what programs you have, but simply said: you don't have too many programs, do you?

[Ross Toller]

We have lots of programs in the Correctional Service of Canada.

[Don Davies, NDP, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

Okay, but I didn't ask you if you had lots either. You don't have too many, do you? It's not as if you have so many vocational skills training programs just sitting there waiting for inmates to take advantage of.

[Ross Toller]

We have waiting lists for programs, without any question, yes.

[Don Davies, NDP, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

Right.

I'll tell you, at every institution I've been in—and I'll just make this blanket statement—there is a grotesque shortage of programs to provide inmates with vocational and skills training, at least from what I've seen. In fact, at the Kent Institution, I was in a room this size that used to be used by a CORCAN program for inmates to make furniture to be sold to the federal government. It was this big, but it's now empty. It's being used as a storage room. There's not one vocational program at Kent Institution, and I visited it three months ago.

So would you agree with me that there are institutions in this country that don't have sufficient vocational programs? Would that be a fair statement?