Public Safety Committee on March 25th, 2010

[Ross Toller]

Yes, I would agree without question, and that is the reason we're looking at reinvesting in vocational programs where there are needs. I mentioned before that we're in the early development phases of improving and developing more in these particular areas.

[Don Davies, NDP, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

Right, so why don't we keep the prison farm program and add these other programs you're talking about, which will lead to welding tickets and—

[Applause]

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Mark Holland]

Order, order.

[Don Davies, NDP, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

What's the harm in that?

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Mark Holland]

There's time for an extremely brief response.

[Don Davies, NDP, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

Is there any harm in that?

[Ross Toller]

Harm in keeping the farm and—

[Don Davies, NDP, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

Yes, and adding these other good programs.

[Ross Toller]

Well, again, unfortunately for us the skills that are learned on the farm, notwithstanding the transposable skills, are ones that don't lead to a better likelihood of gaining employment in the vocational area.

[Don Davies, NDP, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

So it sounds like a hundred years of bad planning, then.

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Mark Holland]

I'm going to have to interject, sorry.

Mr. MacKenzie, for five minutes.

[Dave MacKenzie, Conservative, Oxford, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

Unfortunately, today is one of those days where some of my colleagues have played to the crowd, as entertainers do from time to time. However, the real issue here is that we're looking at what is good for public safety and what is good for the prisoners when they go into prison and when they come out.

Some of us do come from agricultural communities. Some 28% of the GDP in my riding is agricultural, so I understand agriculture. I wouldn't tell you that I'm a farmer. I'm told by other people that they have been on farms, which doesn't mean they're farmers, but what we are seeing here are a lot of suggestions that only the people who have been on the prison farms have learned certain skill sets. I know from past experience that people have used silly examples, and I'm not saying that's the case here, but they have used silly examples to say that a certain percentage of people who do this or that were people who ate mashed potatoes. This is not in the same context, but my concern is that we have some people trying to play a game here that the only way people get skills is to work on prison farms.

When you've indicated that 14 of these people have gone on to have jobs in the agricultural community, I think those 14 are great, and if they stay at those jobs they'll learn a great deal in life, but the problem is that the skills cited here, which some of these folks claim to have learned, are not marketable. When I look at the list of jobs that people have obtained, some of them you simply can't learn by being a good team player or being punctual on the job, or any of those things. They have to learn them when they come out, so that employers are prepared to hire them. That collection, hopefully, will grow with the money that comes from CORCAN.

We have already heard that when my colleague across the floor was Solicitor General, those funds were cut in half. If he really believed in this, we would have doubled those funds and put more prison farms out there. We didn't do that. So now that the decision is being made to provide these opportunities for the prisoners to come out with skills—

[Wayne Easter, Liberal, Malpeque, PE]

On a point of order, Mr. Chair, that's misinformation. There was no cutting of the funds in half.

Don't go that far.

[Dave MacKenzie, Conservative, Oxford, ON]

I think the record will show it, but I don't have any problem with that.

What I really want to know is how do we help people coming out of prison not to reoffend? Is it not by providing them with the opportunity to learn skills and to get jobs when they come out?

[Ross Toller]

As I mentioned a few times here, the integration of looking at correctional needs with inmates are very prolific. Many of our inmates have significant substance abuse problems. Many have mental health issues. With many there are gang-associated elements, and many have violent tendencies. So we invest much effort and activity and many dollars towards addressing those particular deficits.

Similarly, in terms of education, a significant number of inmates come to us sorely lacking in education, to the point where 70% have not finished high school and close to 82% of that group don't even have grade 10. Again, Stats Canada really emphasized the fact that at least 84% of jobs right now in the market require secondary school completion. So we work on that particular element as well.

Employability is the connectivity of the third integration piece of this, which really calls for looking at employability skills that can be readily available to sustain a job and to have a job when one goes into the community. It can't be one without the other.

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Mark Holland]

Mr. Kramp, for one minute.

There will be another opportunity.

[Daryl Kramp, Conservative, Prince Edward—Hastings, ON]

Okay, thank you. Maybe I'll just correct the one statement, then.

There was an inference that this is a government directive. I sit on the public accounts committee, as our chair has as well. I also sit on the finance committee. The basic duties are oversight and accountability, and as such we are mandated by the Auditor General in making recommendations to these committees as to how a government should best do its job. One of the recommendations that the Auditor General brought forward was to have systematic, strategic reviews of departments. That is in place. The government has initiated that, and those departments are mandated to do periodic reviews. That just happens as a normal course of action based on the recommendations of the Auditor General. Those recommendations have been implemented and we do that.

I'm located in proximity to the prison farms. I certainly understand the local concerns and the costs and benefits to local communities, which of course is another factor that we definitely have to take into account. But I think primarily there are two concerns. One is securing an inmate. The second concern, of course, is the rehabilitation—is it cost-efficient, is it effective, and do we have the most successful form of placement? I think that's the crux of the argument here, the crux of the information that has been brought forward, and really it's going to come down to that particular decision with all the local information and—

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Mark Holland]

After Mr. Kania, if we can, there will be an opportunity to come back to that.

[Daryl Kramp, Conservative, Prince Edward—Hastings, ON]

Thank you.

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Mark Holland]

Mr. Kania, for five minutes.

[Andrew Kania, Liberal, Brampton West, ON]

When I was last questioning you, I asked about empirical evidence. You mentioned the name of a report. Is there one study that you're referring to?

[Ross Toller]

I'm sorry, in which area?

[Andrew Kania, Liberal, Brampton West, ON]

I'm asking about the evidence you relied upon when coming to the decision to close the prison farms.

[Ross Toller]

For the strategic review process?

[Andrew Kania, Liberal, Brampton West, ON]

Correct.