Public Safety Committee on March 30th, 2010

[Dave Perry]

I've been employed as a agribusiness instructor for 18 years.

[André Bellavance, Bloc, Richmond—Arthabaska, QC]

Could we say that in 18 years you have seen hundreds if not thousands of prisoners come through?

[Dave Perry]

While I was employed at the dairy operation at Frontenac, we'd put well over 100 inmates through that program in a year, and in the abattoir, probably 40 or 45 per year.

[André Bellavance, Bloc, Richmond—Arthabaska, QC]

I understand that you couldn't give us a figure for the number of inmates who have been successful in life, or how many have been rehabilitated. But when we look at inmates when they arrive, I am sure there are some with whom it is more difficult. I am sure that some are more recalcitrant when it comes to getting them to do work or whatever.

Based on your 18 years of experience, can you say that when you take an inmate, in a large majority of cases, at the end of their apprenticeship, you are satisfied that you have made them, or helped to make them, a better person? Are you convinced that the person is fit to return to society? That they have become an asset to society, and not a cost?

[Dave Perry]

Yes, I'm definitely convinced. We're told that these inmates aren't tracked, but we see them in the communities, and they are successful. They do get jobs. I'd say a higher percentage of inmates who go through these farm programs stay out of trouble. I would say that's a given.

[Ron Amey]

I would like to make one comment. I've heard it said a couple of times that there were no prison farms in Quebec. Unfortunately, there were. I'm thinking of Mount St. Francis in the Laval area. It was a very good farm. It was disappointing when it was closed, which I think was in the 1970s. We ended up getting some of the equipment from them at that time. But again, it grew around.... There was no support. It was actually quite a shame.

Getting back to some of the questions about the inmates, as Dave said, we see this time and time again. A lot of guys will come up to you, shake your hand, and say, “Thank you very much”. The first time that ever happened, I thought it was kind of odd, because they're in prison, so why would they be thanking you? But a lot of guys have done that, time and time again.

The way we judge it is that we don't see them again. Nine times out of ten, if they do reoffend, they're sent back to where they left. So that's one indication we get: we don't see these fellows, so I think we've done a good job in that respect.

[André Bellavance, Bloc, Richmond—Arthabaska, QC]

Mr. Leeman, my question is for you. You were at a prison farm. I don't want you to go into the details of your private life, but I think I can tell from your testimony that it was very beneficial for you. If you went back in time, Mr. Leeman, and you were told you were going to be in prison, that you would just stay there passively, do your time, do physical training, go for a walk in the yard from time to time, and that was about all you were offered, do you think you would be the same man today?

Earlier, you listed the jobs you have held. I'm not saying it would not have been possible to get them. When you got out of there you might have been able to rehabilitate yourself. All the same, do you think that without that experience, you would be the same man today?

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

There's time for a brief response.

Go ahead, Mr. Leeman.

[John Leeman]

Well, I think I'd be the same guy today, but I don't know if I could have utilized the tools that I have. It's the respect that you're taught and the courtesy that you give to each other on the farm. Sometimes when you're not working in the barn, there's a spot you can go to and make a garden. When we do a garden, the guys who are working together ask what we can do with it. We donate it to Martha's Table or Salvation Army soup kitchens or Boys and Girls Clubs. I still see that happening today.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

Okay. Thank you very much.

Ms. Hoeppner, go ahead, please.

[Candice Bergen, Conservative, Portage—Lisgar, MB]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I also want to thank the witnesses for being here. I think what we are all impressed with is that you're genuine. You really believe in what you're talking about. I appreciate that very much.

I normally don't sit on this committee, and I don't think my colleagues even know this, but about 25 years ago when I was a very young woman, my family and I volunteered for five years. Every month, we'd go to Stony Mountain penitentiary, where we volunteered in the chapel program. Who would ever have thought that a mom and dad would take in their young girls to volunteer? But I can tell you that it was a very positive experience.

We met men, probably like you, Mr. Leeman, who had been in foster homes, and who had had no real mom or dad. I know that my dad became a father to many of them. Also, as a young woman, I was treated probably with the most respect in many of those prisons by some of those individuals. The work we did was primarily at Stony Mountain, but I remember hearing a lot about the farm, about Rockwood, because a lot of the guys were hoping that they'd have a chance to go to Rockwood and be a part of it. So hearing your testimony, hearing what you have to say, means a lot to me.

I do want to challenge you, Mr. Flanagan. I know your assertion is that our government is tough on crime, and you are right. We believe in that. Our approach to crime is markedly different from that of the previous government, but I would suggest that when you're pointing a finger, as far as political motivation goes, there may be a few fingers pointing back at you. I would suggest that we want to balance being tough on crime with compassion and with taxpayers' dollars, so there is a balancing act.

I have a couple of questions. As I said, I found many of the inmates wanted to go to the farm because it was a much better experience.

Mr. Leeman, I'll ask you this, and maybe I'll ask Mr. McDermott as well. Do you find that the farms are of greater benefit because they are a reward, a better place to be, the skills you learn are appreciated, and you are able to have more freedom? These are inmates who have earned their way there.

What would you say is the greater benefit? Those things or the actual skills you learned so that you could go out and get a job?

[John Leeman]

I would say there are a lot of skills going on at the farm to benefit the community, because a lot of guys come with a lot of baggage when they come to camp. Even though you're in a work-sharing program and you're not a threat to public safety anymore--or you wouldn't be in minimum--there is still baggage going on, where there's animosity. We've seen this in the job force, where the staff have sent them to the unit and they're rehired. They've learned that this will not be tolerated in the community, that a job is in jeopardy. Those are valuable tools to have.

It's not all about the correctional plan when looking at that last step of going into the community, where people have learned to be team players and have moved away from worrying about who this guy is and being a judge and jury about who a guy is. At least, that was the way most of the time when I went through there. I learned all of that.

We all know that certain sentences go through and people don't get along, but when you're in the camp, you learn not to be judgmental. You're to come and do your job. There are people in the community who don't get along in the job force.

[Candice Bergen, Conservative, Portage—Lisgar, MB]

That's right.

[John Leeman]

So that's being taught. I think that's a very valuable tool and it is a good reintegration process.

[Candice Bergen, Conservative, Portage—Lisgar, MB]

So it's more the interpersonal skills and the reintegration as opposed to, let's say.... It wasn't necessarily a trade you were learning, although you were learning skills such as getting up early, going to work, and those kinds of things.

[John Leeman]

Yes--life skills.

[Candice Bergen, Conservative, Portage—Lisgar, MB]

Life skills--

[John Leeman]

Yes.

[Candice Bergen, Conservative, Portage—Lisgar, MB]

--as opposed to a trade or getting your licence or something to that effect.

[John Leeman]

I ended up getting all my trades in the other institutions but I never had a chance to demonstrate them. When I wanted to finish off in the related trades that I needed to continue, they all disappeared, and I was wondering what was going to happen before we got through our sentences. When I went to Frontenac, it was such a wake-up call, as I've said, because these tools are not taught to you where there is punishment, and trying to get you into the programs and give you some education, that final part is done in minimum.

You think you have it when you're in medium or maximum, but you don't have it until you demonstrate it, so I believe that....

[Candice Bergen, Conservative, Portage—Lisgar, MB]

That's right.

Do I have a little bit of time?

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

Yes, you have.

[Candice Bergen, Conservative, Portage—Lisgar, MB]

Mr. McDermott, if you have something to say on that, that would be great, but could you also speak a little more about aboriginal women? You were saying that aboriginal women make up the fastest growing population in our prisons. Is that correct?

[Larry McDermott]

Yes. It's hugely disproportionate. It's nearly 30% of the population of Canada, whereas aboriginal people represent 4% of the population of Canada. The ratio is way out of whack.

[Candice Bergen, Conservative, Portage—Lisgar, MB]

What kinds of skills do they need? Are the farms helping them? Are any farms serving aboriginal women's prisons?