Public Safety Committee on March 5th, 2013

[A/Commr Todd G. Shean]

The word “temporary”.... There are provincial witness protection programs that afford a regime for protection of witnesses within the province. Provinces can certainly refer to the federal program. They're two different programs, but there are regimes.

[Francis Scarpaleggia, Liberal, Lac-Saint-Louis, QC]

At what point would the province refer to the federal program? What would be the decision-making point there?

[A/Commr Todd G. Shean]

There could be a number of different trigger points. The province could decide it's a provincial case and they're referring it to their own program and will deal with the protectee within the confines of their program. Or for some reason they could feel there are intricacies within the program that they feel they would be better suited to the federal program.

[Francis Scarpaleggia, Liberal, Lac-Saint-Louis, QC]

If they decided to remain within the provincial program, could they still get the federal paperwork they need?

[A/Commr Todd G. Shean]

They always could, and this legislation now with the designated...it will streamline that process.

[Francis Scarpaleggia, Liberal, Lac-Saint-Louis, QC]

I see.

I'm going to follow up on Mr. Hawn's line of questioning about terrorism cases. Let's say we're talking about a witness in a terrorism case. That's a criminal case, so why would the witness in that terrorism case not be eligible today for the federal witness protection program? There would be a court case, I would imagine, and CSIS might be involved in some of the background work, but I would imagine the RCMP would be involved at some point.

[A/Commr Todd G. Shean]

They are eligible today. Simply with the amendments to the legislation now, if CSIS so chooses, they could refer witnesses to the witness protection program

[Francis Scarpaleggia, Liberal, Lac-Saint-Louis, QC]

Before it even gets to court?

[A/Commr Todd G. Shean]

That's correct.

[Francis Scarpaleggia, Liberal, Lac-Saint-Louis, QC]

In the case of witnesses in a National Defence context being protected, could you give me an example of what that kind of case could be?

[Insp Greg Bowen]

Certainly the military police have a certain capacity to conduct investigations. I think another component might be perhaps certain individuals who are at risk as a result of their assistance provided to the Canadian Forces in some of their international operations, perhaps.

[Francis Scarpaleggia, Liberal, Lac-Saint-Louis, QC]

I see, so special forces types of people?

[Insp Greg Bowen]

Yes. I suppose anything.

[Francis Scarpaleggia, Liberal, Lac-Saint-Louis, QC]

In terms of adding a program to schedule 1, what are the criteria for making a provincial or municipal program a designated program? Is there a certain level of quality of protection that a program must provide in order to become a designated program, or will all municipal and provincial programs be automatically designated?

[Julie Mugford, Director, Research and National Coordination, Organized Crime Division, Department of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness]

One of the things we would look at is whether there is a provincial confirmation, probably from an attorney general or a minister of justice, that their program has the capacity to protect information and protectees, and that there's a termination process—a couple of things along those lines.

[Francis Scarpaleggia, Liberal, Lac-Saint-Louis, QC]

I know we're broadening the net of protection, or actually broadening the kind of information that can be divulged, from just information about the witness to information about the program and about the people running the program. Is that in response to a problem you've seen? Have some people, other than the witnesses, been threatened or somehow targeted, maybe the people running the program, the public servants, and so on?

[A/Commr Todd G. Shean]

Not in any case that I could point to specifically. We recognize that the level of criminality is becoming more sophisticated, so this legislation affords that protection.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Thank you very much.

We'll now move to Madame Doré Lefebvre.

[Rosane Doré Lefebvre, NDP, Alfred-Pellan, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you all for being here to enlighten us on Bill C-51. We are very glad to have you.

I have found the discussions on witness protection extremely interesting. My conservative colleague Mr. Hawn commented on witness protection within penitentiaries. That reminds me of something. In my riding, the Leclerc Institution is currently being closed. It had a specialized wing for witness protection. I hope the government will take that into account and replace it elsewhere. Witnesses were protected by being isolated from the rest of the prison population. I wanted to clarify things.

One comment surprised me. The City of Montreal has its own witness protection program. How does that work? Some provinces have witness protection programs, but does the City of Montreal really have its own witness protection program? I don't know if you have a bit more information or if you know how it works. Do the three levels of government in Quebec have a witness protection program?

[A/Commr Todd G. Shean]

I don't want to venture an answer because I don't have specific information about their program.

[Rosane Doré Lefebvre, NDP, Alfred-Pellan, QC]

Is it the only city in Canada that has such a program? Do other cities also have a witness protection program?

[A/Commr Todd G. Shean]

I think other police services have some aspects of a witness protection program. That may be the case in Montreal or Toronto. My colleague tells me that the City of Montreal has a certain program, but I am not very aware of what it does.

[Rosane Doré Lefebvre, NDP, Alfred-Pellan, QC]

Okay.

I was also interested in the discussions around costs. The approximate annual costs of the program for four people were provided. It was said that the protection is for life.

Furthermore, since it is the RCMP that pays for witness protection federally, I want to be sure of one thing. If I am not mistaken, Bill C-51 does not provide more money for witness protection. You are therefore responsible, whether it was intended or not, for the costs directly related to witness protection. The bill expands eligibility criteria for the program. How will that work? Your budget will be a bit reduced. Will you be able to cover the costs entailed by Bill C-51? I would like to know.

[A/Commr Todd G. Shean]

I am confident that we have the necessary resources to conduct an effective witness protection program, even with what Bill C-51 adds.

[Rosane Doré Lefebvre, NDP, Alfred-Pellan, QC]

So even with Bill C-51, it will be possible to do so. A lack of funding for witness protection won't force you to pay less attention to some groups that would perhaps be seen as less important or something.