Evidence of meeting #31 for Public Safety and National Security in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was nations.
2:45 p.m.
Liberal
Marco Mendicino Liberal Eglinton—Lawrence, ON
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you, gentlemen, for your testimony today.
Professor Randall, would you agree that one of the most effective ways to prevent radicalization to violence often lies within the community itself?
2:45 p.m.
Professor, University of Calgary, As an Individual
My one-word answer to that is yes.
2:45 p.m.
Liberal
Marco Mendicino Liberal Eglinton—Lawrence, ON
Notwithstanding your agreement, there are some impediments or barriers to the success of that. You mentioned two groups of people, youth and women, two very significant and vital components to any vibrant community.
Let me ask you a few questions about youth. Would you agree that to engage full participation amongst youth, we should find ways to promote or foster a higher performance registration within the academic process within schools?
2:45 p.m.
Professor, University of Calgary, As an Individual
I'm not sure what you mean by a higher level of registration within the schools.
2:45 p.m.
Liberal
2:45 p.m.
Professor, University of Calgary, As an Individual
Yes. British Columbia and Alberta both have had fairly high dropout rates in the high school context. I think continuing involvement in educational institutions is important, but I think equally important is what happens after 3:30 or 4 o'clock in the afternoon.
2:45 p.m.
Liberal
2:45 p.m.
Professor, University of Calgary, As an Individual
There's a huge gap there. Kids who are in school between 8 o'clock in the morning and 4 o'clock in the afternoon are less likely to be getting into difficulty than are those who are not in school.
2:45 p.m.
Liberal
Marco Mendicino Liberal Eglinton—Lawrence, ON
What kinds of programs in the context of counter-radicalization should we be looking at after school?
2:45 p.m.
Professor, University of Calgary, As an Individual
It comes out of police clubs. It comes out of the mosques. It comes out of church organizations. It comes out of social clubs. It comes out of general athletic clubs. It comes out of parents. Let's face it, parents are not entirely irrelevant in this process.
2:45 p.m.
Liberal
Marco Mendicino Liberal Eglinton—Lawrence, ON
You mentioned parents. I've spoken with a number of parents in my community. Within the ethnic communities, they will say that when they try to access conventional community organizations or hubs for support, there is a bit of reluctance because of a difference between the values or norms within their community and those within the broader community.
When we talk about how we overcome the barriers to getting women fully engaged within any efforts to prevent radicalization or violence, what suggestions can you offer there?
2:50 p.m.
Professor, University of Calgary, As an Individual
It's particularly hard in the Muslim community. We know that to be the case, not exclusively but frequently, in that context. I think it has to come out of the community itself. It's not something we're going to be able to legislate or deal with in a top-down manner. It has to come out of the families, and it has to come out of the communities.
2:50 p.m.
Liberal
Marco Mendicino Liberal Eglinton—Lawrence, ON
What sensitivities should government actors and public stakeholders be exhibiting to overcome those barriers? I'm really trying to drawing on your expertise, since you have worked abroad.
2:50 p.m.
Professor, University of Calgary, As an Individual
Well, you really need to pose that not to a historian but to a social worker. I'm not going to give you a very professional response to that question, but I'll give you a very personal response to it.
When I was a kid, I belonged to a local police club. This was in a semi-rural area outside of Toronto. I never got beat up so much in my life as when I belonged to that social club. Why? Because it attracted all the local toughs from the community. So I would add that there's a downside to community activities as well.
2:50 p.m.
Liberal
Marco Mendicino Liberal Eglinton—Lawrence, ON
How do we remove that stigma? It's funny, because there's a lot coincidence in that anecdote with regard to what I hear from those priority communities who I think become the focus of a lot of our concerns to prevent radicalization and prevent violence. I think part of it is reconciling the stigmas that get attached to conventional police services and personnel, and other government or state actors.
How do we square that circle? How do we build trust and goodwill with those ethnic communities and any community that might be the focus of this effort?
2:50 p.m.
Professor, University of Calgary, As an Individual
I think you have to try to identify the leaders within those communities and let them take the lead.
I'll come back to the context of Haiti. One of the reasons the Brazilians were so successful in rebuilding Haiti, until the disastrous earthquake, of course, in 2010, was that they worked with the local community and sought out the people who were self-identified as the leaders within that community. I think you have to start there.
Again, I don't claim any expertise as a social worker. I know from one of my colleagues and social workers working with the Vietnamese community here that this is very much the way in which they proceed.
2:50 p.m.
Liberal
Marco Mendicino Liberal Eglinton—Lawrence, ON
My question is to the panel. There was a comment made about how civilian oversight has not been particularly helpful in the past. There are some who are advocating precisely for a sort of civilian oversight in a super SIRC where we would have civilians with the subject matter expertise.
Do you see any value in having a super SIRC, or are you more in favour of seeing the committee of parliamentarians develop its own subject matter expertise because it's accountable to the House of Commons?
2:50 p.m.
Professor, University of Calgary, As an Individual
I think the primacy should be on Parliament in this respect. There's no reason to exclude civilian oversight committees, but if they're going to be established, they have to have clear guidelines and they have to have teeth.
2:50 p.m.
Liberal
Marco Mendicino Liberal Eglinton—Lawrence, ON
Professor Huebert or Professor Bercuson, do you have anything to add?
2:50 p.m.
Director, Centre for Military, Security and Strategic Studies, University of Calgary
I don't think civilian oversight works, because in this situation we're not dealing with criminal matters, we're dealing with security issues. Much of the evidence that is going to be used by the security agencies is going to be secret evidence.
2:50 p.m.
Liberal
Marco Mendicino Liberal Eglinton—Lawrence, ON
Do you not see that there has been any value in either the reports or recommendations submitted by SIRC or—
2:50 p.m.
Director, Centre for Military, Security and Strategic Studies, University of Calgary
I see some overall general value. I don't see any specific value whatsoever, because if I were a member of one of these committees, there's just too much stuff that I could never get to see, so then what's the point?
2:50 p.m.
Liberal
2:50 p.m.
Director, Centre for Military, Security and Strategic Studies, University of Calgary
Yes, and you must keep some of this information secret. You can't pretend that the criminal procedures we use are applicable to procedures that we would use in cases of apprehended terrorism or actually terrorism. We can't.
