Public Safety Committee on Oct. 5th, 2017

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

The information would be helpful, though, if you had it at non-official points of exit or entry.

[Mieke Bos]

We rely on this information to establish residency requirements in different lines of business, so more information would be very useful for our purposes.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you very much.

Monsieur Dubé.

[Matthew Dubé, NDP, Beloeil—Chambly, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

My thanks to the witnesses for being here this morning.

As everyone knows, the program has been in place since 2013, but it only applies to people whose citizenship is other than Canadian or American, including permanent residents.

How did the collection of data on permanent residents unfold? Were there any problematic cases? Has it affected the records of any individuals since 2013, when the program started?

[Mieke Bos]

IRCC, since the initial rollout pilot project and partial rollout that the member of the committee refers to, has not yet had an automatic connectivity with Canada Border Services Agency, which is really what we will be establishing once the entry-exit system is up and running.

Currently, we don't have a way to access this information in a systematic way. If we need verification, we can go to CBSA on a case-by-case basis.

I may ask my colleague Marc-André to provide a little bit more clarity on how it works currently and how it will work in the future.

[Marc-André Daigle]

Great.

The first two phases of the entry/exit initiative, a large-scale measure, consisted strictly of memoranda of understanding and information-sharing protocols between the Government of Canada and the U.S. government. The exchange took place strictly between the IRCC and the CBSA. The Department of Citizenship and Immigration is very interested in monitoring and overseeing the progress of this initiative. However, unfortunately, I am not in a position to tell you about our department's active participation and the development of the connectivity.

[Matthew Dubé, NDP, Beloeil—Chambly, QC]

I want to make sure I fully understand what you are saying.

Since 2013, information has been gathered about the exits of Canadian permanent residents. Information is collected and shared, but your department does not have access to it. Is that correct?

[Marc-André Daigle]

I cannot comment on that. At this time, our department does not have access to the information systematically. However, as I explained, in cases where there are doubts about people or an investigation is initiated, there are memoranda of understanding for the exchange of data and information, as well as privacy measures. This allows us, at the federal level, to have protocols and to share data on a case-by-case basis.

[Matthew Dubé, NDP, Beloeil—Chambly, QC]

So it would be difficult to assess the potential impact on someone who has been granted permanent resident status and would like to obtain citizenship, for example.

We are not really able to tell whether the collection of information has had an impact on the file, because, in most cases, you would not have access to that information. Is that correct?

[Marc-André Daigle]

Actually, in the next phases, phases three and four, the exchange of information about all people travelling by land between Canada and the United States will be more systematic. In addition, the final phase will make it possible to obtain more information beforehand, from the manifests of travellers who leave Canada.

Once we have access to the various components, we will be in a better position to assess the short-term impact on cases where there are doubts about travellers regarding the

their requirements in terms of permanent residency.

[Matthew Dubé, NDP, Beloeil—Chambly, QC]

Are you in a position to tell us the number of suspect cases where the information would have been shared since 2013, when the program started? You can also provide us with this information at a later time, if you cannot do so now.

[Marc-André Daigle]

Unfortunately, I'm not able to give you that information.

[Matthew Dubé, NDP, Beloeil—Chambly, QC]

My next question is whether there's a recourse mechanism if someone challenges the information about them.

If there is a human error in a file that the Canada Border Services Agency sent you, is there a recourse mechanism in your department that allows the person concerned to correct the record?

[Mieke Bos]

There are existing redress mechanisms in all of our lines of business. The CBSA has its own redress mechanisms.

Let's say a permanent resident makes an application for citizenship and we deny it based on the information available, partially based on the information we obtain through the future entry-exit system. There's always a redress system. The client can always go back and contest, and a follow-up can be done. That exists throughout the department.

[Matthew Dubé, NDP, Beloeil—Chambly, QC]

I have a specific situation in mind about a constituent in my riding. She had bought a plane ticket to visit a family member abroad. My office intervened to warn her not to do so because of the potential consequences.

With the way the legislation is written, could such a case come to your attention, since the person is supposed to have left the country after buying a ticket, even though she did not end up leaving the country?

[Mieke Bos]

If I understood your question correctly, the moment that the information is made available is when the person is actually on the manifest. Even if somebody purchases a ticket, we would not have access to that information. It's the moment that somebody is on the manifest of the airline and the airline submits that manifest back to us. It's when somebody is actually departing the country.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you, Mr. Dubé.

Mr. Fragiskatos.

[Peter Fragiskatos, Liberal, London North Centre, ON]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

To pick up on the question that Mr. Dubé just asked, you say there are redress opportunities in place. Could you go into that in specific detail?

Suppose someone wants to contest the accuracy of the response given by your department. What exactly can they do?

[Mieke Bos]

I'll ask my colleague Emmanuelle to provide a bit more detail.

[Emmanuelle Deault-Bonin]

Again what's important to remember is that when we are looking at an application, the entry and exit data would come into play to validate information that would already be provided by the applicant as part of the application.

When we look at the application, there are a number of factors and sources of information. It always depends on the type of application. For example, you can ask for judicial review and you have a right of appeal in certain applications. You also have the Privacy Act that allows you to seek access to your record and make corrections if there are issues raised. That's another avenue that clients can avail themselves of.

There is also procedural fairness built into some of the process. Prior to making a decision, there are mechanisms by which we can communicate with the client to say, “Here are some of our doubts and some of our questions. Can you provide more answers before we make a decision?”

There are different tools, depending on the type of application and the seriousness of the potential inadmissibility, but also through the privacy regime that we have here in Canada.

[Peter Fragiskatos, Liberal, London North Centre, ON]

Thank you very much.

Ms. Bos, in your written testimony that I have here in front of me, you state on page 8, “For example, entry/exit records would make it easier for IRCC to verify that residence requirements are being met by applicants for eligibility in citizenship and immigration programs.”

To what extent is this a major challenge right now? Tell us how this bill can be helpful in dealing with that challenge.

[Mieke Bos]

Thanks very much, Mr. Chair, for the question.

It can be a challenge in certain cases just because clients aren't always good at keeping their own records, frankly speaking. I think that when we talk about the benefits of this system, we're talking about the benefits for the vast majority of entirely legitimate clients of IRCC, who may have forgotten when they went on holidays or came back, or who just have not kept their records properly.

Sometimes our officers have to spend a lot of time retracing the steps and seeking evidence that the clients have actually met the requirement. It's a facilitative tool in that sense, but of course it's also very important to make sure there are no fraudulent applications.

[Peter Fragiskatos, Liberal, London North Centre, ON]

Thank you.

On page 3 of your brief, you talk about a knowledge gap being in place now, which we've heard about already. I think Mr. Picard asked the question. Tell the committee, but also speak to Canadians on this. How does the knowledge gap that's in place hinder your work? How does it get in the way of good public policy execution?

The committee is here performing our roles, but we're here on behalf of Canadians. I think that if there's a knowledge gap that exists that's concerning, tell us specifically why it's concerning.

[Mieke Bos]

I think it's concerning, Mr. Chair, because it hinders program integrity; that's the term we use. We want to make sure that those who are entitled to citizenship and to permanent residency get it, and that those who are not entitled to it do not get it. I think it is in the interest of Canadians and of the country as a whole to make sure that the very robust immigration programs we have in place, which are fair, transparent, and clear, are adhered to.

Again, it is a matter of what we refer to as program integrity, so that the right people benefit from the programs we have put in place.

[Peter Fragiskatos, Liberal, London North Centre, ON]

Thank you. I have a final question.

On page 7 of your brief, it states, “IRCC takes its privacy obligations very seriously, and together with the CBSA, and the OPC, we will continue to work to ensure that privacy principles are upheld.”

Can you talk about the coordination, specifically between IRCC and CBSA, and exactly how that unfolds on the issue of privacy?