Evidence of meeting #10 for Public Safety and National Security in the 43rd Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was women.
A recording is available from Parliament.
5:15 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal John McKay
Thank you, Madam Stubbs.
Mr. Iacono, go ahead for five minutes, please.
5:15 p.m.
Liberal
Pam Damoff Liberal Oakville North—Burlington, ON
Chair, doesn't it go to the Liberals next?
Oh. It does. Never mind.
5:15 p.m.
Voices
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5:15 p.m.
Voices
Oh, oh!
5:15 p.m.
NDP
Jack Harris NDP St. John's East, NL
On a point of order, Chair, I'm assuming that at some point we'll be starting a second hour. This is not it, is it?
5:15 p.m.
NDP
5:15 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal John McKay
You're a little premature in your point of order, may I say. Let us finish with Mr. Iacono. Then I'll make a proposal to the committee that possibly will make you happy, Mr. Harris.
Mr. Iacono, we will restart your time. You have five minutes, please.
5:15 p.m.
Liberal
Angelo Iacono Liberal Alfred-Pellan, QC
Thank you for the opportunity, Mr. Chair.
Mr. Bastarache, thank you for being here today to answer our questions about your report on the toxic culture in the Royal Canadian Mounted Police.
The Swiss cheese model was created by Professor James Reason more than 20 years ago and recently used by virologist Ian Mackay to build a pandemic defence. Briefly put, the theory is that no single type of intervention is enough because every individual measure has holes, which is why we need several slices of cheese, or interventions, to block the risk. The more layers of cheese, or measures, there are, the more protection is provided and the fewer cases fall through the holes.
Based on that model, could you name your five to 10 main recommendations that, despite the holes in each measure, could complement each other to provide better protection?
You can always send them to us later if you need time to consider them.
Do you understand my question?
5:20 p.m.
Legal Counsel, As an Individual
Yes. I was just looking for the list of recommendations. You're asking me which are the most important ones.
I think the most important recommendation is to recruit the right people and to have a good training program. That means reforming within the Depot division and establishing a career plan for every individual. That's essential.
To build trust in management, sanctions must absolutely be introduced for people who fail to meet standards or who harass others. There must also be sanctions for managers who have a supervisory role and close their eyes to, or simply disregard, what happens, while claiming the situation's not that serious. That's the other absolutely essential measure.
I think the police force also has to be reorganized and specialized. I personally don't think it makes much sense to train everyone who's supposed to be involved in traffic or general policing and then suddenly reassign them to specialized positions. While they're policing the roads, they aren't studying or being trained to do anything else. I think the situation's poorly organized in that regard.
On the other hand, I also think it's important for the police to have specialized sectors. For example, you have to have a federal police force that enforces federal law and is equipped for success in that field. If you want to do provincial policing, then do provincial policing, provided you select candidates who want to do provincial policing instead of saying that everyone will be doing it. By default, you'll create a unit with a woman who measures five foot two and a man who's six foot two because they're all officers and have to be able to do the same things.
5:20 p.m.
Liberal
Angelo Iacono Liberal Alfred-Pellan, QC
Do you agree that it might be viable and practicable, in restructuring the RCMP's management and organization, to hand over management to a board of directors consisting of equal numbers of RCMP members and members from the legal, social and community sectors rather than to a single commissioner?
5:20 p.m.
Legal Counsel, As an Individual
I think we need a commissioner who is responsible, but that doesn't mean you don't need a board of directors.
The commissioner reformed the board this year. I think seven of the 15 members of the management committee are now women, and I also know that some members are from visible minorities. Changes have been made in that regard.
Now, what is the role of a board of directors? There are several ways to consider that. I don't know which would be the best model for the RCMP because I'm not an expert on the police, but I know people continue to say that, first, you have to undo [Inaudible—Editor]. That's an 18th-century model.
5:20 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal John McKay
Colleagues, that completes two rounds.
We have the witness for another 40 or 45 minutes, assuming he can survive the questioning for the next 40 or 45 minutes.
I first of all want to ask you, Justice Bastarache, whether you feel you need a break. If you don't, we'll just keep on plowing along. If you do, we'll suspend for a minute or two while we have a break. Are you in need of a break?
5:25 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal John McKay
Okay, good.
Colleagues, what I propose is to continue on with five-minute rounds, and then if there's still time remaining, we can have a fourth round, and we'll figure out whether it's a two-minute or a three-minute round, and that should take us to 10 after six.
Does that satisfy you, Mr. Harris?
5:25 p.m.
NDP
Jack Harris NDP St. John's East, NL
Are you suggesting five minutes per party, and not five, five, two and a half, two and a half?
5:25 p.m.
Liberal
5:25 p.m.
NDP
Jack Harris NDP St. John's East, NL
I was going to suggest—and I was raising it as a point of order—doing what we did the other night in the foreign affairs committee when we had the minister for two hours. In the first hour we had the usual first round and then the second round with the two and a half in the middle, and at the beginning of the second hour we started from the top again as if it were the beginning of a meeting. Given that we're doing a double meeting with one witness, as we are with Justice Bastarache, I would suggest that we follow the same procedure and have a second opening round of either six minutes or five with all four parties having equal time.
5:25 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal John McKay
Yes, I hear you. That is not a precedent for the public safety committee. When we reconstituted the committee at the start of this session, the third round was contemplated to be five, five, two and a half, two and a half minutes. That's what I propose. I expect that we'll be able to squeeze a few more questions in that way.
With that, Mr. Kurek, you have five minutes. Go ahead, please.