Evidence of meeting #10 for Public Safety and National Security in the 43rd Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was women.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Michel Bastarache  Legal Counsel, As an Individual

4:10 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal John McKay

I'm calling this meeting to order.

Welcome, all of you, to meeting number 10 of the public safety committee.

We have, as our witness today, retired Supreme Court justice Mr. Michel Bastarache, who has co-authored a report called “Broken Dreams Broken Lives: The Devastating Effects of Sexual Harassment On Women in the RCMP”. It's a very profound and very disturbing report.

Mr. Justice Bastarache, welcome to the committee. We look forward to what you have to say. Generally, we would ask you to speak for about 10 minutes in opening remarks, and we'd have fully two hours with you.

I apologize for the late start, but it is the new way of doing things when it comes to votes in the House. Again, I apologize for that.

Welcome to the committee. We are very keen to hear what you have to say.

4:10 p.m.

Michel Bastarache Legal Counsel, As an Individual

Thank you for the invitation.

I was happy to receive this invitation because I think this report is very important. It's a devastating report, I think, for a major institution of our country. Everybody wants the RCMP to be what we thought it would be, or that it should be, and this is more a call for reform than anything else.

When I began to work on this project, I knew there had been previous studies that had dealt directly with the problem—

4:10 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal John McKay

Excuse me, Justice Bastarache. The interpreters are having a bit of difficulty hearing you. If you could hold your microphone up a bit closer to your mouth, it'll work a bit better.

4:10 p.m.

Legal Counsel, As an Individual

Michel Bastarache

Okay, is this better?

4:10 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal John McKay

Excellent. That's much better, yes. Thank you for that.

4:10 p.m.

Legal Counsel, As an Individual

Michel Bastarache

What I was saying is that when I began to work on the project, I knew, of course, that there had been previous studies and that some of them had dealt directly with the problem of integrating women into the RCMP. However, I had no idea of the present situation or the measures that had been taken to remedy the problems discovered in those studies.

The parties to the agreement said that harassment was still prevalent and that I would receive 1,000 claims. I received more than 3,000 claims and know for a fact that many women who are being harassed even today did not file a claim. This would indicate how profound the problem is.

But there are more preoccupying issues: the harassment is systemic and results from a very toxic culture; the problem is so important that it puts in question the ability of the RCMP to truly accomplish its mission; and the harassment was so violent that it put in peril the health and security of thousands of women over a 30-year period.

Many women the assessors interviewed had been diagnosed with serious psychological injury, including major depressive disorder, post-traumatic stress disorder, generalized anxiety disorder, panic attacks and substance dependence. Claimants also reported a real lack of trust in the RCMP itself; a lack of trust in the men who work with them; feelings of isolation; withdrawal from social activities, friendships and sexual relations; humiliation; lack of self-esteem; and lack of confidence. When you look at all of that and say that it is prevalent in more than 1,000 women, you would think you're in a crisis situation.

It was also concerning that the events described in these claims were not all historical, overtaken by time or overtaken by updated policies. While the claims process did not review conduct that occurred after May 30, 2017, some claimants disclosed that they were still experiencing similar incidents despite the initiatives taken by the RCMP to address gender- and sexual-orientation-based harassment.

Despite numerous investigations and reviews, harassment remains present in many areas of the organization. Worse still, disrespectful conduct has been perpetrated and condoned at every level of the hierarchy.

I often heard that there were many good members trying to do a good job in a difficult environment, and I'm sure this is true and that many members are well intentioned and trying to do the right thing. But the reality is that even honourable members and well-intentioned leaders have been required to conform to or at least accept the underlying culture, which they have for the most part had to adopt to succeed themselves. The leadership and membership have all suffered from that.

I think there is a certain cognitive dissonance in the RCMP. Why? Because there are a lot of well-intentioned people who believe themselves to be ethical; hence, systemic racism or systemic gender-based disadvantages and discrimination cannot exist in the RCMP. What they rely on is the “few bad apples” justification. This approach allows an organization to continue as it is, relying on the impression that simply finding these bad apples will solve the issue. They are not willing to recognize the systemic and cultural nature of sexual harassment and gender- and sexual-orientation-based harassment in the RCMP.

I have a list of the men who were accused of harassment and a list of those who were found to be responsible for harassment in the various grievance processes. These aren't a few bad apples. These are hundreds of bad apples.

Based on the 3,086 claims that I have personally read, and the 644 interviews that I, with the help of two other assessors, conducted, I concluded that the RCMP is imbued with a toxic culture that tolerates misogyny and homophobia within its ranks and even within its leadership.

The culture of the RCMP portrayed by the claimants is one of constant sexism, homophobia, gossip and backbiting, where reprisals for rocking the boat and rumour mongering flourish. While many claimants took care [Technical difficulty—Editor]—

4:20 p.m.

Liberal

Pam Damoff Liberal Oakville North—Burlington, ON

Chair, on a point of order, he's on mute.

4:20 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal John McKay

You've just put yourself on mute inadvertently.

4:20 p.m.

Legal Counsel, As an Individual

Michel Bastarache

I'm sorry about that.

4:20 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal John McKay

Just repeat your last two sentences, if you would, please.

4:20 p.m.

Legal Counsel, As an Individual

Michel Bastarache

The culture of the RCMP portrayed by the claimants is one of sexism, homophobia, gossip and backbiting where reprisal for rocking the boat and rumour mongering flourish. While many claimants took care to mention that they had worked with some good members, they indicated that even these members often felt compelled to accept the prevalent culture and remained silent in the face of injustice.

Sexual misconduct in the RCMP appears to occur with a surprising frequency from recruitment to the age of retirement. The assessors concluded, for instance, that there was evidence of 131 cases of outright rape that were reported, for which only one person was actually brought to court. Lesser forms of sexual harassment and abuse—although all sexual abuse and misconduct is serious—appear to be rampant.

All candidates wanting to join the RCMP must first complete a six-month training period at Depot, the RCMP training facility in Regina. Abuses started immediately at this stage. Many of the women the assessors interviewed joined the RCMP at a very young age. It used to be 19 or 20 years old; it's now around 24.

They were often naive, and in many cases the RCMP was their first job and their first time away from their families. Many recounted stories of being shocked by the language and open sexualized nature of the conduct they were confronted with at Depot from trainers, instructors and fellow candidates.

Instructors preyed on young women for at least 20 years there. Harassment was also frequent from male cadets who quickly learned to emulate their instructors. Women were told they were only there to have sex with the men. The assessors heard that the atmosphere at Depot did change for the better over time. However, they still heard recent stories of sexual harassment and discrimination by male instructors. There is constant drinking to excess. There is sexual assault, and there are derogatory comments about women and especially their place in the RCMP.

Candidates who graduate from Depot must then complete the recruit field training program—a six-month period of in-the-field training during which a more senior constable is put in charge of training a new constable who has just left Depot. The goal is to train the new constable on the job, to teach her the necessary skills and procedures required to function as a regular member.

The field coach is responsible for writing an assessment of the new constable.

4:20 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal John McKay

Justice Bastarache, as hesitant as I am to interrupt a Supreme Court Justice, we generally allocate 10 minutes, and we're well over our 10-minute time limit, but if you could conclude, I know members are keen to ask you a few questions.

4:25 p.m.

Legal Counsel, As an Individual

Michel Bastarache

Okay. What I wanted to say is that first, you have to go to field training. In field training, there were constant sexual invitations, you might say, from the leaders to the young women who were dependent on assessment by those people and were in a situation where they had no choice, they said. Then the situation didn't improve much when they started their new career in a new detachment, because at first they're sent up north. They're sent to regions where there are very few women. Often they're the only woman there. That, in itself, creates a group of very vulnerable people. There has been tremendous abuse in those regions.

The other form of harassment, of course, is to deprive women of equal opportunity. They have not had equal opportunity for training or promotion because there's no real career plan developed for the graduates of Depot. I made 52 recommendations. I don't think that any of them would make a very fundamental change, but I think if you had all of them at the same time, they would. You have to re-establish faith in the system and in the governance of the RCMP for anything positive to happen in the next three years.

Thank you.

4:25 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal John McKay

Thank you again for your report.

Before I call on my colleagues, I want to reference not only your report but also its conclusion, in which you say that you:

do not see any way forward without some form of sustained independent and external pressure. There are measures that may be taken to address specific issues, but I am not confident that this will correct the fundamental problems in the RCMP. In my view, the time has come to ask some hard questions about the structure and governance of federal policing in Canada. The past has demonstrated that change cannot come from within the RCMP. There must be a rigorous review of the RCMP followed by changes that will ensure that federal policing is delivered efficiently in a manner compliant with the Charter value of equality and with the Government of Canada’s commitment to gender equality, including in the workplace.

You may or may not know, Justice Bastarache, that this committee has been conducting a study on racism in policing. It does echo uncannily some of the testimony that we have heard. I'm going to turn it over to my colleagues now, but from the chair's standpoint, this is a core question. We have had report after report; we've had the commissioner here multiple times; we've had the minister here multiple times—in fact we've had several ministers here—and you are really calling into question whether this can actually be fixed.

I'm not going to ask you to respond to that, but that, from the chair's standpoint, is the core question that needs to be asked.

With that, Mr. Motz, you have six minutes, followed by Madame Damoff, Madame Michaud and Mr. Harris, for six minutes each.

Mr. Motz, go ahead, please.

4:25 p.m.

Conservative

Glen Motz Conservative Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB

Thank you, Chair.

On behalf of the committee and certainly my colleagues, I want to thank you, Justice Bastarache, for your work and for the assessors' work in this incredibly troubling exercise you've gone through, and for the report.

I want to touch on a couple of things in the time that I have, sir. I want to quote you from some of the grievances that have been laid out:

I have significant doubt that the 2014 amendments to the RCMP Act (see Chapter 4) will address the issues that the other Assessors and I have seen. The procedures are still very much based on an internal mechanism, with decision-making responsibility delegated to a relatively low level, with little independent oversight.

A second quote is:

...most women said they would never use the grievance or harassment complaint system as they simply had no faith in its efficacy or fairness.

You list three main issues that were repeatedly mentioned by the claimants: the lack of fairness, a fear of reprisal, and failures to implement any punishments.

You wrote that “complaints are more detrimental to the victim than the harasser”, and that filing a complaint would have individuals labelled as troublemakers and complainers.

In many cases, the complainants were targeted with criminal charges and in some cases as well “the higher the number of [harassment] complaints against a [supervisory] member, the bigger the promotion he will get.”

Obviously, we have a problem.

Could you walk us through, in a couple of seconds, exactly.... If I'm a member of the RCMP and if I have a complaint against another member of the RCMP—supervisory or otherwise—what's the mechanism I go through to make that complaint known?

4:30 p.m.

Legal Counsel, As an Individual

Michel Bastarache

Right now, there are a couple of grievance processes. One of them is specifically for sexual harassment, and this is the new approach. The other one, of course, is to use the code of conduct and have an inquiry under the code of conduct, but what happens is that they're officers of the same region who are appointed there to hear the griever. There may not be a direct conflict in the sense that it's someone in her family or something, but what the women say is that there's a boys' club and they defend their friends, and basically it becomes an unfair process because of that.

The other thing is that they don't follow their own rules. If there's a rule that says you have to have a report within three months, some of them have been waiting three years, and some of them never got a copy of the report.

The two main things are that there is no effective punishment, and if there is no punishment, basically it will continue, but also, they're doing it, as a lot of people have said, like the Catholic Church—they just move them to another parish. I have a list of people who have been found guilty up to 15 times. Those people have been promoted.

4:30 p.m.

Conservative

Glen Motz Conservative Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB

Thank you, Justice. I know that we could go on and on, and I want to get to a couple of other points that I think are critical and that we need to delve into today as well.

I guess I'll ask you for a simple yes or no. Would you say in your assessment, then, that the apparent flaw, the process you just described, contributes to the issue that we're discussing here today?

4:30 p.m.

Legal Counsel, As an Individual

Michel Bastarache

Yes, absolutely.

4:30 p.m.

Conservative

Glen Motz Conservative Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB

If that's the case, what are your recommendations?

I was intrigued by many of them. You recommend—I'll paraphrase—that we:

create an effective, external and independent body to which RCMP employees may report sexual harassment or misconduct which has the power to investigate and make binding findings of fact and recommend penalties.

That's a laudable recommendation, but how do you actually see that playing out in practical or operational terms, sir?

4:30 p.m.

Legal Counsel, As an Individual

Michel Bastarache

Well, you can design the committee to be formed by people from other police forces or other regions, or by people who are not RCMP but have some experience with policing. Basically, those people would have the power to investigate. I think they should also be able to start investigations without a complaint when they know that something is going on in a district—

4:30 p.m.

Conservative

Glen Motz Conservative Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB

Yes, fair enough. I think that's—

4:30 p.m.

Legal Counsel, As an Individual

Michel Bastarache

—but the main thing is retribution. If a woman complains, whether she wins or loses, there will be retribution. This is why even a very good committee is not going to receive a lot of complaints: because of the retribution.

4:30 p.m.

Conservative

Glen Motz Conservative Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB

You've mentioned this three or four times already in your opening remarks and in my questions, and I'll quote you from page 47 of your report:

it...became clear that several men (at every level of seniority) repeatedly harassed or sexually assaulted women”.

This is criminal behaviour. It's criminal behaviour.

4:30 p.m.

Legal Counsel, As an Individual

Michel Bastarache

In many, many cases, yes.

4:30 p.m.

Conservative

Glen Motz Conservative Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB

You have a list of who these people are.