Public Safety Committee on Dec. 2nd, 2020

[Michel Bastarache]

I do not know enough about the minister's duties or the way his office is organized. I think the government has to get far more involved in the reform that must be done.

You may not want to dismantle the RCMP and create three organizations instead of one, but it's possible to specialize police officers. You can have a federal police force separate from the one that has contracts with the provinces and municipalities. I don't think you can deal with general matters in a municipal police department and the next day find yourself in a position where you're doing highly specialized cybercrime work, for example.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

We're going to have to leave it there.

Thank you, Ms. Michaud.

[Michel Bastarache]

It would be better for candidates to have university training than a high school diploma.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

It's Mr. Harris for six minutes, please.

You're on mute, Jack.

[Jack Harris, NDP, St. John's East, NL]

Thank you, Chair, and thank you Justice Bastarache for your work on this report, for your comments here today and for your work in assisting with the assessment.

First of all, I want to pay tribute to Janet Merlo and Linda Davidson for bringing forth this class action lawsuit. I also want to note their perseverance and courage in getting to the point of a settlement, but I think we should recognize that what you were dealing with was a subset of all the problems. There was a class defined by a certain period of time, a certain number of people and specific types of incidents, so we're not looking at the whole history of complaints. I think that's kind of important. You were just assessing those who came forward, indicating that there were others who did not, or did not wish to do so, for various reasons.

I have to say that your report and the overall feeling, as Ms. Damoff said, is very depressing to read. It's very hard to imagine how this could be fixed when many of the people who are involved in this assessment, and those who perpetrated the harassment, are still in the force.

Can you actually have an outside process whereby people could complain and be able to have an assessment done as a resolution to this? You said there's still room for reprisals. There still have to be basic changes in the force itself. If it's not possible for that to be done and you don't have confidence that it could be done by those who are still there, how do we fix it?

[Michel Bastarache]

I think there is the possibility of establishing a grievance process that works. The problem is, you have to have confidence in the process and confidence in the fact that there will be punishment of those who are responsible and that there will not be any retaliation. Those elements are within the RCMP—they can't be outside the RCMP—to establish that confidence and to make sure that there is no retribution afterwards.

[Jack Harris, NDP, St. John's East, NL]

You mentioned several times that there were some serial harassers and multiple victims of one or more particular individuals, some of whom were promoted and are still there. One survivor of this harassment indicated to me that they're still there and that you do have a list. You've said that several times. They may be up in very high ranks in the force. Should something be done with that list? It sounds like you're inviting us to ask you to help. Maybe these individuals ought not to be there anymore.

I notice you suggest in your recommendations that someone who's been found to have engaged in harassment should be punished, but if they're found a second time, they should be dismissed from the force. You have identified people who have already been found to have harassed more than once. What should happen to them? Should they be identified and encouraged to leave the force in some way or another? Is there something that should happen as a sign that there's an attempt to clear the decks?

[Michel Bastarache]

In my case, I can't release any of the names, because that was one of the conditions under which they established the process. The reason is that they said if I were to give the names, then most of the women wouldn't participate. They'd be afraid of reprisal. It had to be a very open process for them to come in and do it.

I think it's quite easy to identify some of them. As I said, when they're found guilty of harassment, they're moved around. It's easy to see who's been changed three or four times and been in trouble three or four times.

[Jack Harris, NDP, St. John's East, NL]

I take it you suspect that the senior management of the RCMP is probably pretty aware of who these individuals are. If they were serious about doing something about this problem, they would have found a way to get rid of them.

[Michel Bastarache]

It's probably not the case for all of them, but for some of them, for sure. I think the more serious ones usually are more easily identified. But the women who spoke to me might speak to someone else now, too. They may be less scared than they were a while ago.

[Jack Harris, NDP, St. John's East, NL]

The same individual suggested that a large number of civilian employees in the RCMP at one time were allowed, and were able to be deemed, to be in the public service and apply for public service jobs and be accepted. That appears to have been stopped by the commissioner.

If these individuals, traumatized but still working for the RCMP and still in the same culture, have a chance to get out, is that something you would favour, at least as an opportunity for them to get away from this culture if it's not going to be fixed or can't be fixed easily, as you suggest?

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Mr. Harris, you've gone quite a bit past your time, but that's an extremely important question.

Mr. Harris will have a second round of questions very shortly. If you could pick up the answer at that time, it would be helpful. That way we can keep to some sort of time schedule.

With that, I'll call on Mr. Van Popta for five minutes, please.

[Tako Van Popta, Conservative, Langley—Aldergrove, BC]

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you, Mr. Justice Bastarache, for joining us today. We really do appreciate it. Thank you for your report.

I agree with my colleagues who spoke earlier that it was a very difficult report to read. As I read the stories of some of the women, some of the complainants, I grieved with them. It must have been difficult for you to hear those stories as well.

I can tell you that as a proud Canadian, I was also personally offended, because I've always been proud of the RCMP. When I was a young lad, my parents, just immigrants from Europe, raised us to be proud Canadians. They would take us to see the musical ride of the RCMP. It always gave us a sense of pride.

Has that pride been misplaced? Can the RCMP even be fixed?

[Michel Bastarache]

You know, it's quite surprising, but I think that in spite of everything that's happened and everything that's been in the news and even with the publication of this report, most Canadians still see the RCMP as a very important part of our democracy, and they believe it can still be the best police in the world. They believe that. In that sense, I think with the general public it may be easier to rebuild confidence where it's lost. It's within the force that it's more difficult, because of all the failures of the past to deal with these serious issues and especially with the role and place of women in the force.

[Tako Van Popta, Conservative, Langley—Aldergrove, BC]

I do recognize that, and you must be optimistic too, because you actually gave 54 recommendations supposing that the RCMP actually can be fixed.

I read this in the executive summary on page VII. You said, “Indeed, there are strong reasons to doubt that the RCMP has the capacity or the will to make the changes necessary to address the toxic aspects of its culture.” That leaves me with a feeling that maybe your optimism to actually give recommendations is overstated. What do you say?

[Michel Bastarache]

What I say is that it's very difficult, because there are still in the administration a lot of people who are for the status quo and who don't believe much in the new approach. They're going to be a stumbling block. But there are some who want reform, and of course the women want reform. If you can bring all of those forces together and have strong leadership over a few years, a lot can be done. The reason I came to a conclusion like that was that if it failed 15 times, it's hard to believe it's going to work on the 16th time. Of course you don't have the same people there to run the show, and that can make a big difference.

[Tako Van Popta, Conservative, Langley—Aldergrove, BC]

Wouldn't we be better off just to dismantle the RCMP and put in a new structure? The city of Surrey, which is next door to my riding, is getting rid of the RCMP, the largest detachment in all of Canada. It's putting in their own city police force. Why not? Why wouldn't that be better?

[Michel Bastarache]

I don't know if it can be better, but of course they will have a stronger grip on the policing that is being done there. I think the danger for the RCMP is that if Surrey goes through with its project, there might be two or three or four or more municipalities that do the same thing or a province that decides to establish a provincial police, and that, of course, would create a real crisis within the RCMP. It would have to change its model.

[Tako Van Popta, Conservative, Langley—Aldergrove, BC]

Do I have time for another quick question, Mr. Chair?

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

You have 30 seconds.

[Tako Van Popta, Conservative, Langley—Aldergrove, BC]

I was talking to the local officer in charge here in my riding—Langley—and he was estimating the numbers. He said there are about 1,000 new graduates from Depot every year but probably 750 to 850 retirees. You can't grow them fast enough, and now you're saying that we should make the hurdle even higher with two years of university. How does that work?

[Michel Bastarache]

First of all, I think there's been a change there. The candidates are now on average older and more educated. I would put the bar quite high, because I think that policing has changed and that you need people capable of learning new techniques and learning to work with the Internet and everything that is based on science.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

We're going to have to leave that answer there, Mr. Van Popta.

Madam Khera, go ahead for five minutes, please.

[Kamal Khera, Liberal, Brampton West, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Mr. Justice Bastarache for being here and, more importantly, for the vital work on this report.

Quite honestly, like my colleagues, I found this report extremely disturbing, gut-wrenching and quite appalling to read. It indicates a culture in the RCMP that is toxic and tolerates misogynistic and homophobic attitudes amongst its leaders and members. One can't even begin to think that it's happening in one of the top institutions in Canada.

What's even more shocking is that there have been three decades of internal and external reports that have been delivered to the RCMP and governments, and quite honestly, it's shameful that nothing significant has been done.

I think the path forward is clear. There needs to be a political will to respond. I think harassment of all types simply cannot continue. I think you've provided the government with the blueprint for that change, and I know that the minister has condemned this as well.

You talk about building confidence. How do you build that confidence, and what can the members of this committee and perhaps the minister do right now, immediately, to address this?

[Michel Bastarache]

I think what has to happen is that the commissioner has to establish a real plan for the reform and take some drastic actions right away—I mean, to change some of the structures or some of the leadership. She knows, I think, who are the strong and who are the not-so-strong leaders at every level. I think people expect something that they can see and that demonstrates the will to make hard decisions, to move ahead and to then try to get people involved in the changes. This is how they'll rebuild confidence. Can it be done? She, I know, has changed a lot of the people around her. I suppose she must have gotten rid of some of the people who were for the status quo. These are the things, but they have to be seen because, otherwise, if it looks too much like policy changes, nobody inside's going to believe that it's going to make a change.