Evidence of meeting #10 for Public Safety and National Security in the 43rd Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was women.
A recording is available from Parliament.
6 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal John McKay
Thank you for that.
Thank you, colleagues, for that indulgence.
Madam Stubbs, you have two minutes, please.
6 p.m.
Conservative
Shannon Stubbs Conservative Lakeland, AB
Thanks, Chair.
Justice Bastarache, another point in your report concerned doctors who committed numerous cases of assault and were allowed to keep treating patients. Do you know if they're still practising today? Have your findings on that been reported for criminal investigations or to the appropriate medical body to begin revoking their licences?
6 p.m.
Legal Counsel, As an Individual
There were two doctors, one in Toronto and one in Halifax. In the Halifax case, it was reported to the provincial or municipal police. It was investigated. It did go to the medical society. They did nothing. Basically they said that what they had the right to do and didn't have the right to do was not very clear, and things like this. The reason they weren't covered by my study was that to qualify, you had to be working for the RCMP. They were applying for jobs with the RCMP. I put it in the report that the government should compensate those women just like the others. I did that because in spite of the fact it's been three or four years since those doctors have been moved away, there still hasn't been anything done for the victims. However, I was told by government people that they're going to set up another process like mine for the victims of the two doctors. I hope they do, because they should.
6 p.m.
Liberal
6 p.m.
Liberal
Angelo Iacono Liberal Alfred-Pellan, QC
Mr. Bastarache, you said that a real stigma is still attached to mental illness today. As you stated in your report, many victims who need help avoid requesting it out of fear they will be stigmatized.
Do you think that establishing a systematic psychological assessment system would help mitigate that stigma and more promptly catch any abuses?
6:05 p.m.
Legal Counsel, As an Individual
Yes, absolutely. I recommended it. I think that, if everyone is subject to an assessment, people will start understanding that it's normal.
The second point is that everyone's medical files must absolutely remain confidential. One of the big problems is that the physicians hired by the RCMP very often forward exam results to managers within the force. Consequently, women feel they can't consult a doctor because they fear he will tell someone that she isn't qualified or that she has psychological problems and so on.
These two situations must be corrected. As you say, it's not complicated: you need only make assessments mandatory for everyone.
6:05 p.m.
Liberal
6:05 p.m.
Liberal
6:05 p.m.
Bloc
Kristina Michaud Bloc Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair
Earlier we talked about 15 reports that had been issued over 30 years and nothing had really changed. I wonder about the role of outside bodies that produce those kinds of reports. Even after recommendations are made, we see that no changes can be made from the inside, within the RCMP, and that you don't know how the minister will act or whether he'll consider the recommendations.
Somewhat like the correctional investigator who conducts investigations and issues reports and recommendations, wouldn't it be time to give these outside bodies a little more authority rather than merely authority to make recommendations?
How could that be put in place?
6:05 p.m.
Legal Counsel, As an Individual
I don't know what outside authorities you mean. There's obviously the minister, who must have certain authorities he can exercise over RCMP management, although I don't know what they might be. There's not really any outside organization in place.
A committee has been established, but it's not a management committee; it's an advisory committee. That can't have a major impact on the delicate situations were discussing here.
6:05 p.m.
Bloc
Kristina Michaud Bloc Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC
So it's really up to the minister to act and to put something in place in order to find a solution.
6:05 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal John McKay
Thank you, Madame Michaud.
Mr. Harris, you have the final two minutes, please.
6:05 p.m.
NDP
Jack Harris NDP St. John's East, NL
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Mr. Bastarache, I'm disturbed to hear that there's a policy issue. You can change policies. However, at the operational level, we have what you have revealed, these serious criminal offences occurring with impunity in an organization that's charged with enforcing the law on behalf of all Canadians.
You say that there's a requirement for outside pressure. It seems to me that if that can be going on and still goes on, this would require something, perhaps, more than that. Would you think that this calls for an inquiry? You are doing this as an assessment of damages and making these observations in your report—and we thank you for them—but in terms of outside pressure, asking the commissioner or giving her an advisory board doesn't seem to be pressure at all, and the toxic culture that gave rise to this impunity still exists. Does this call for a public inquiry?
6:05 p.m.
Legal Counsel, As an Individual
What I said in the report was that some of the women I interviewed, especially those in higher positions, did want me to recommend a royal commission or a commission of inquiry of some type. The reason I only said that this is what they said is because I was restricted to deal only with the question of sexual harassment.
6:10 p.m.
NDP
Jack Harris NDP St. John's East, NL
I invite you to suggest it now before us or to suggest whatever you wish to suggest.
6:10 p.m.
Legal Counsel, As an Individual
I thought myself that the minister, if he read my report and understood what really needs to be done, would certainly take some kind of action.
If I could discover a list of people who weren't obeying the law and were committing these sexual crimes, I'm sure that inside the box they can find the same people. They can find that out, but they've got to have the political will to do it.
6:10 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal John McKay
Thank you, Mr. Harris.
Mr. Justice Bastarache, the people of Canada owe you a huge debt of gratitude. I've been a politician for 23 years, and I don't think I've ever sat on a committee that has dealt with a report that is so absolutely devastating and so profound. You have actually been amazing at how you've riveted the members of the committee for two hours.
Colleagues, we're going to have to take some advice as to where we go with this.
Again, thank you, sir, for your work. On behalf of the people of Canada and on behalf of my colleagues, we really appreciate the time you've spent with us.
6:10 p.m.
Legal Counsel, As an Individual
I just want to add one thing. I didn't think there was the political response that I expected when I prepared the report and made it public. This is why I'm very grateful to you to have me tonight, because I did have at least the opportunity to speak to some members of Parliament, who can speak to other members of Parliament and their own party, because, you know, it has really nothing to do with the work that I had to do. It really is a problem for all Canadians, and I think one that is important enough that there should be a stronger reaction to what's happened, and try to find out exactly what's happening now, where we stand now....
Thank you.
6:10 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal John McKay
Thank you. Your words are well taken.
With that, colleagues, I'm going to adjourn. We'll meet again on Monday to resume our study on racism and, in the final hour, give some instructions to the analysts. Also, possibly, colleagues, we should give some thought to the words of the justice here and be prepared to have some discussion about that.
Again, thank you for your time, sir.
With that, the meeting is adjourned.