Public Safety Committee on Dec. 2nd, 2020

[Michel Bastarache]

Yes.

[Glen Motz, Conservative, Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB]

Have any of these repeat offenders been identified to authorities to investigate that you're aware of?

[Michel Bastarache]

Not by me, but some of them have been identified by the women who were assaulted and, in a few cases, by men who were witnesses.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you, Mr. Motz. We're going to have to leave it there.

Madam Damoff, you have six minutes.

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

Justice Bastarache, I just cannot thank you and the team that worked with you enough for putting this report together. I had trouble reading it. I couldn't read it all in one night because it upset me so much. I can't imagine what you folks went through doing the interviews and preparing for it.

The committee has heard me use this comparison before, but a couple of years ago I read a report on the Edmonton institute, Edmonton Max, about the issues they were having there with sexual harassment, and they compared it to the 1950s movie The Blob: many of the people who become part of it are good people but helpless against its power. How do you get rid of something so all-consuming? As I read your report, I couldn't help but think exactly the same thing.

You've made all these recommendations. Do you think the RCMP has the ability to implement those recommendations? The minister has come out publicly and has condemned what has happened, and I know that he wants to see things change, but is the RCMP able to do this and fix what's going on there?

[Michel Bastarache]

The real problem is that the women are not confident that it can be done, because there have been 15 reports before, and every time the RCMP said they accepted the recommendations. They did make some changes, but they were mostly policy changes and organizational changes while what the women want, of course, is the men to be accountable for what they're doing and the managers—their supervisors—who are not supervising to be sanctioned also.

It can be done if there is real leadership. It can't be done by a single person. I think a lot of the women would be willing to support strongly the commissioner if they saw her take really drastic action, and I think some of the men who have been hiding would come out and play their role in putting together a team. You shouldn't have the RCMP divided into women policemen and men policemen—it should be one single team.

It's wrong, I think, to continuously say this is the woman corporal or the woman supervisor. Why would we say that? Because we're making a distinction, and the women feel that they're being undermined by that.

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

I want to ask you about the RCMP Management Advisory Board. You talked about accountability, and as we've been studying systemic racism, that's something that has come up over and over again—the lack of accountability and the lack of consequences for officers who are not acting properly.

I just read an article today. Robert Gordon, who is from Simon Fraser University, said that the RCMP is “addicted to secrecy.” Do you think that the reports of the Management Advisory Board should be made public, and also, do you think they should be made available to the minister?

[Michel Bastarache]

Yes, I do. I think they have to be. I never saw the report. I asked for it, because how do you want me to have an idea as to whether these people know what's going on and are willing to put some pressure on the administration to resolve the issues?

Why do we have an advisory board if nobody knows what it's doing.? I don't see that as efficient.

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

I noticed that in that article the chair of the advisory board was very evasive in the answers to the questions and just said you'll have to ask the RCMP why they weren't made public.

I am just so troubled. To go back to what my colleague Mr. Motz was talking about, a hundred and thirty women disclosed sexual assaults with penetration. How on earth could that happen with no consequences for those people? It's mind-boggling to me.

[Michel Bastarache]

The fact that this did happen created a total loss of confidence in the administration in the sense that it was supervising and supposed to provide a safe workplace for these women.

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

The French interpretation has clicked in. Something's wrong here.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Yes, the French interpretation just overrode the English.

Just go back and continue on. We'll see whether we're back on.

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

It seems to be okay with you speaking, Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Okay.

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

I guess this isn't just a matter of consequences for that employee within the RCMP. These are also things for which criminal charges should be laid.

[Michel Bastarache]

Oh, yes, and some of the women asked me whether I could do something, but I said that when it's criminal conduct, it's for the victim to do that. I said, look, you participated in this process, but you can still lay a criminal charge. They said that even if they did, even if they won, they would lose in the end because they'd lose their job. They'd lose their job because they'd be attacked by everybody who—

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

This is so typical of women who are survivors of sexual violence. They're the ones who are penalized, and the perpetrators continually get away with it. Your report is one of the most troubling things I've read in my life.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

We're going to have to leave it there, unfortunately, Ms. Damoff.

[Michel Bastarache]

This is why it's written this way. I think there has to be some action taken right now and some action of consequence. I'm happy that the commissioner has committed to doing these things. She just has to create some kind of way to get the good people in the RCMP behind her.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

We have to leave it there. Thank you.

Ms. Michaud, you have the floor for six minutes, please.

[Kristina Michaud, Bloc, Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Mr. Bastarache, for your important work and your report, which is quite powerful and hard to read in some parts, particularly for a woman.

You talk about the toxic culture and the boys' club atmosphere that reigns in the RCMP and in its governance. My impression is that this, in a way, is the message that's being sent to women who want to join the police: this is a male environment where they aren't welcome, and these are the kinds of things that will happen to them if they go there. It's absolutely appalling.

As you said in your findings, it will take a real transformation to change this toxic culture, and that has to come from outside the RCMP. We've seen several reports and studies on the subject; many legislative and administrative changes have been made, but nothing that has actually altered the situation.

I'm going to repeat the question the chair raised earlier: where can this change come from, and who can take action at this stage?

[Michel Bastarache]

I've been told that the government and ministers responsible are only interested in financial issues. They want to know how much it costs, what the financial needs are and whether the problems are associated with underfunding.

We can talk about money if necessary, but based on what I'm told, no one ever wants to debate those kinds of issues.

And yet there's a financial impact. Hundreds of women are on long-term leave, and many people who have been trained are retiring at 40 because they can't take the harassment anymore. There's definitely a correlation between the financial aspect and the problem.

How should the government proceed? First, it has to get up to speed and really monitor what's happening. It has to emphasize the need for reform.

[Kristina Michaud, Bloc, Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

Thank you.

So let's talk money.

You state in your report that some $125 million in claims was paid out to compensate women who had suffered injury. I believe there are six categories of compensation ranging from $10,000 to $220,000. The whole system is well thought-out and seems to work better than the complaints system made available to women, according to what you described earlier. It seems completely illogical that the compensation scheme is better structured.

It's entirely normal for victims to be compensated, but my impression is that the government is trying to repair the damage by writing cheques to compensate the women instead of getting to the root of the problem. This money could be used to do that by offering training, or some way could be found to use the money to ensure this doesn't happen in the first place and that people can't abuse their power within the RCMP.

I'd like to hear what you have to say about that. What could be done with the money?

[Michel Bastarache]

I think there has to be reform in management.

You have to start by establishing a career plan for each individual. You also have to show them how to aspire to management. To manage, you have to have values and genuinely be able to communicate with the people who report to you so they feel they're part of a team. Then they'll want to introduce reforms.

However, if no one trusts the leaders because many of them, particularly those at lower line levels, have abused their power, it's hard to do anything.

On the other hand, it's also hard to identify the guilty parties in management at an enormous organization such as this one and to get rid of them quickly. This reform will be a major effort, and I think it will take several years.

[Kristina Michaud, Bloc, Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

I have a brief question to finish with.

The witnesses we heard from during our study on systemic racism in policing thought the Minister of Public Safety might be wearing too many hats; that the RCMP should be managed by someone else, and the commissioner should be more accountable. We know she's come in for some criticism in recent months.

What do you think about that? Does the minister have too much on his plate for the RCMP to function properly?