Public Safety Committee on July 25th, 2022

[Commr Brenda Lucki]

I didn't think at all. It was a question; I provided an answer.

The minister is very conscious of.... First of all, he has an appetite for questions. He's a former police officer, so the who, what, where, why, when and how is almost part of his DNA. Any time there's an event, he will ask those questions.

I provide the answers I can, but I'm always going back to the source because I often don't know what the answers to those questions are. I wouldn't infer anything from what he said. It was a simple question that I was going to provide a response to.

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

Just hypothetically, if the minister had asked for this information to be released through the RCMP, do you think that would be regarded as an operational directive or more of a communications directive?

[Commr Brenda Lucki]

I think it could be a little bit of both. The thing is, if information could be released, then I would say, “Yes, it can be released” and I will ask them to do that. I will check and see if they can actually do that or if they cannot.

The question is not interference. It's what happens with it. If I feel that the question is forcing me to do something that I don't want to do, to me that's interference. Asking me to do something in the investigation is interference. Asking me to arrest somebody, not arrest somebody, sanction somebody or not sanction somebody is interference. Asking questions is not interference.

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

I understand.

I guess if you, as commissioner, were presented with a directive that you felt was operational interference...what tools does a commissioner have at his or her disposal if the government of the day is asking that?

Commissioner, we have examples from the past. In the previous hour, I cited how the Diefenbaker government directed the RCMP to send forces to Newfoundland. The Liberal government under Jean Chrétien, during the 1997 APEC summit, tried to give directional information to the RCMP about the president of Indonesia's visit.

What tools does the RCMP commissioner have at his or her disposal if the government of the day is very intent on micromanaging those types of affairs?

[Commr Brenda Lucki]

First of all, as commissioner, I have no qualms about saying, “We are entering an area of direction”. I'm prepared to leave a meeting. Also, like I said, any of the information that I'm providing is not my information. I go back to the team that holds the information and we have a discussion if need be. If somebody says that we cannot release that information because of A, B and C, then that's it—I don't even ask any more.

That's the beauty of the way we do it. It's not my information to release, nor was any of this information for me to release.

I've had a lot of discussions about this, obviously, since it's come to light. Sometimes I think it's time for all three governments to have a conversation. Whoever the government in power is, we should make sure this is very clear and that people are signing off on this, so that we're not having this discussion at the next SECU appearance.

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

Thank you.

On that subject of clarity, I just wanted to nail down on that because the section of the RCMP act that deals with this simply says, “under the direction of the Minister, [the commissioner] has the control and management of the Force”. Some people complain that it's far too vague and very open to interpretation.

Do you feel that we, as legislators, could be looking at that to shore it up, so that we are not in situations like this in the future?

[The Chair, Liberal, Jim Carr]

You're out of time, Mr. MacGregor, but I want to give the commissioner 15 seconds to answer that question.

[Commr Brenda Lucki]

Anything that prevents me from coming back to this committee to answer these questions would be welcome.

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Jim Carr]

Thank you, Commissioner.

We now move into the second round of questions, and we'll be led off by Mr. Lloyd.

Sir, you have five minutes, whenever you're ready.

[Dane Lloyd, Conservative, Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you for being here, Commissioner.

Would it be fair to say, Commissioner, that you believe this entire saga has been the result of a miscommunication, that you were mistakenly told that the information about the guns would be revealed and that this led to the meeting where you were unhappy about the information not being revealed? Would you say the miscommunication is the heart of the issue?

[Commr Brenda Lucki]

Yes, I think miscommunication is at the heart of many issues.

[Dane Lloyd, Conservative, Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB]

Okay, but in this issue in particular, there was a miscommunication.

Now, as to the meeting you had with Minister Blair when you gave him the confirmation that the information about the firearms would be included, how many people were in attendance at that meeting?

[Commr Brenda Lucki]

It wasn't a meeting. It was just a question, I think, from his chief of staff saying—

[Dane Lloyd, Conservative, Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB]

Was it an email?

[Commr Brenda Lucki]

Normally my calendar tells me everything I do each and every day. Unfortunately, I was by myself. Because of COVID, everybody was working from home.

[Dane Lloyd, Conservative, Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB]

Earlier you said that the minister asked if the guns would be included. You said that earlier.

[Commr Brenda Lucki]

I said the minister's office.

[Dane Lloyd, Conservative, Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB]

It was the minister's office. Who was it in the minister's office?

[Commr Brenda Lucki]

It would be the chief of staff.

[Dane Lloyd, Conservative, Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB]

So the chief of staff, not the minister, asked you if the guns would be included.

[Commr Brenda Lucki]

At that point in time, I wasn't talking very often to the minister. It was more with his office.

[Dane Lloyd, Conservative, Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB]

The deputy minister earlier today said that you had a meeting with the minister during this time period. He was not in attendance at the meeting. Did you have a physical meeting or a teleconference call with the minister between April 23 and April 28?

[Commr Brenda Lucki]

I don't have that in my records. I know that I was speaking with that office fairly regularly about this event, as there were a couple of other things going on as well outside of the event.

[Dane Lloyd, Conservative, Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB]

The minister said you guys were meeting on an almost daily basis in the wake of this.