Public Safety Committee on July 25th, 2022

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

Thank you so much, Mr. Chair.

Ms. Tessier, if I can, maybe I'll start with you.

We now have a fairly well-established timeline of what happened between the commissioner and the minister. She has confirmed, in fact, that it was the minister's chief of staff who asked her if the makes and models of the firearms, the detailed information about the firearms, could be released, and she made the confirmation/promise that yes, it could.

Just to confirm, when she did confirm that with the minister's chief of staff, was she basing that on the information that you had provided her? Can you just confirm the process that lead her to be able to make that confirmation to the chief of staff?

[Sharon Tessier]

I'm not aware of when she briefed the chief of staff. I just know that I brief her, and I had briefed her—I believe it was the evening of the 27th or the first thing on the 28th—that we would be releasing more information on the guns.

I did send a revised set of speaking notes to the commissioner, and the version I sent—well, one of the versions I sent—did include information on the firearms to the best of my recollection.

I cannot remember how much detail was in there, but there was reference to the firearms. I have never been in a briefing between the commissioner and the minister or the minister's office, so I can't speak to that.

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

We can assume, based on that information you just confirmed that you gave her, that she was able to make a confirmation on that.

Now, maybe I'll turn to Ms. Bergerman.

In ongoing police investigations, when it comes to the make and model of the firearm that's used in any kind of crime, and given the state of the Nova Scotia investigation at that particular moment, Superintendent Campbell made reference to the fact that, during the teleconference, he said “I tried to explain there was no intent to disrespect anyone, however we could not release this information at this time.”

Can you educate the committee, the public and the media here as to why he would tell the commissioner that? Why at that time was that information so sensitive that it could not yet be released?

[A/Commr Lee Bergerman]

At that time, there was an ongoing investigation as it related to the weapons, because we were working with the FBI and with our counterparts in the U.S., the U.S. border patrol and CBSA, so there was kind of an investigation still going on between those three or four different agencies. There were some determinations of how the gunman got the guns, got the weapons, that had not been fleshed out completely, and there were still many witnesses who had to be interviewed. It would have been detrimental to that investigation to have that out in the public for potential witnesses to hear all this information without first getting the information from those witnesses.

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

As Superintendent Campbell's notes indicate—which you have confirmed are quite accurate in retelling how that conference went—the commissioner came on to the teleconference call after she had made a confirmation/promise.... There's some ambiguity over which particular word it is, but in any case, as she tells it, she made a confirmation to the minister's office that this information would be released.

It was patiently explained to her by Superintendent Campbell that this could not be released at this time because of the investigation, but then she came back after that information was relayed to her and said that you, the group, didn't understand that this was tied to pending gun control legislation. The notes are not very clear after that.

Can you, by recollection, tell us what the reaction in the room was when she stated that, even after Superintendent Campbell told her, “Sorry, we can't at this time because of the ongoing investigation”?

[A/Commr Lee Bergerman]

The reaction was, I would say, confused and a bit stunned, because any police officer knows that if you're in the middle of an investigation, certain information cannot be released. In this case, Superintendent Campbell, who is in charge of support services, or was at the time, and the major crime team working on this investigation working under him are the ones who ultimately make the decision, because they have the intimate details of the investigation. They said that at this time, the weapons and calibre and all of those details could not be released to the public.

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

Chief Superintendent Leather, do you have anything else to add to that? Ms. Bergerman said there was a sense of confusion in the room. Do you have anything to add to that in the final 30 seconds?

[C/Supt Chris Leather]

I'd just reiterate the importance of the sanctity of that information 10 days after the tragedy. Darren Campbell was well positioned to make that statement to the commissioner and to provide that rebuff to her, given his knowledge of the file and his courage of convictions around that. There was an exchange, if you will, between them about the importance of that. I don't believe the commissioner was overly compelled or convinced by his response, saying that we didn't fully understand the implications of not releasing—

[The Chair, Liberal, Jim Carr]

Thank you very much.

We now move to the next round of questions.

This is a five-minute round for you, Mr. Perkins. The floor is yours whenever you're ready.

[Rick Perkins, Conservative, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you for appearing.

You are both very seasoned police officers and investigators. Did either of you take notes of the conversation?

[A/Commr Lee Bergerman]

Yes.

[Rick Perkins, Conservative, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

Could you table those with the committee?

[A/Commr Lee Bergerman]

Not here I can't. I would have to get them out of Nova Scotia to be able to table them.

[Rick Perkins, Conservative, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

Superintendent, could you do that as well?

[C/Supt Chris Leather]

Yes, I have them here.

[Rick Perkins, Conservative, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

That would be great. Thank you very much.

I know at RCMP HQ they have the ability to tape every phone conversation. Did your office conference room have the ability to tape this conversation, or did you?

[A/Commr Lee Bergerman]

We did not tape the conversation.

[Rick Perkins, Conservative, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

Thank you.

Chief Superintendent Leather, you said that SiRT said that the information on the firearms could not be released to anyone outside the RCMP, and that was on April 23. Is that correct?

[C/Supt Chris Leather]

Yes, sir.

[Rick Perkins, Conservative, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

So at four o'clock on April 23, when the commissioner emailed the details of the firearms to people outside of the RCMP, was she breaking the rules with SiRT?

[C/Supt Chris Leather]

I'm not sure that the commissioner was aware of that caveat that was put on the notes. My communication with the gun inventory went to Ms. Bergerman. Where it got communicated beyond that and what was contained in the caveat or not, I'm not sure. It was clear from our conversation with Mr. Curran, the director, that it was the expectation of the RCMP that we keep it in house, and I certainly passed that along.

[Rick Perkins, Conservative, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

That would not be an unusual request in the circumstances.

[C/Supt Chris Leather]

Under the circumstances, because they pertained to the gun inventory of the weapons seized from the gunman's car at the now infamous Big Stop, where he was dispatched, SiRT in fact had primacy on that investigation because there was an investigation into the shooting of the gunman by our members.

H-Strong was an ongoing criminal investigation that we were running parallel, and therefore it's only appropriate that we would consult with the SiRT director to make sure he was comfortable with this release.

[Rick Perkins, Conservative, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

The commissioner would know that in the incident where RCMP have been involved in a shooting, generally SiRT would insert itself into those situations and would restrict the information flow.

[C/Supt Chris Leather]

The commissioner would be well aware of the SiRT investigation, yes.