Evidence of meeting #31 for Public Safety and National Security in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was information.
A video is available from Parliament.
2:10 p.m.
Conservative
Stephen Ellis Conservative Cumberland—Colchester, NS
Thank you, sir.
I'm very confused. I've got a lot of “he's and she's” in here, and I wonder if the member opposite might use their appropriate titles and keep things a bit more clear. I think we're losing the train.
Thank you.
2:10 p.m.
Liberal
Pam Damoff Liberal Oakville North—Burlington, ON
For clarity, Ms. Tessier, the Nova Scotia RCMP—I don't know who it was—was sharing drafts with you. Is that correct?
2:10 p.m.
Former Director General, National Communication Services, Royal Canadian Mounted Police, As an Individual
Yes. We were working on them together. Yes.
2:10 p.m.
Liberal
Pam Damoff Liberal Oakville North—Burlington, ON
Okay. And then you were sharing information with Commissioner Lucki.
2:10 p.m.
Former Director General, National Communication Services, Royal Canadian Mounted Police, As an Individual
Yes, with her office—with Rob O'Reilly.
2:10 p.m.
Liberal
Pam Damoff Liberal Oakville North—Burlington, ON
Okay. And then the information that was shared by you with Commissioner Lucki was in turn shared with Minister Blair or his staff.
2:10 p.m.
Former Director General, National Communication Services, Royal Canadian Mounted Police, As an Individual
I assume so.
2:10 p.m.
Former Director General, National Communication Services, Royal Canadian Mounted Police, As an Individual
Yes. Okay.
2:10 p.m.
Liberal
2:10 p.m.
Former Director General, National Communication Services, Royal Canadian Mounted Police, As an Individual
And that's what she told us.
2:10 p.m.
Liberal
Pam Damoff Liberal Oakville North—Burlington, ON
I guess what I'm trying to clarify is that the commissioner had shared information that she thought was going to be shared publicly. As I remember it at the time, there was a lot of frustration by all parties, by the public and by people in Nova Scotia, about what information was coming out. There were challenges with communications between the people on the ground in Nova Scotia and with the commissioner in terms of what was going to be said at that press conference. Correct?
2:10 p.m.
Former Director General, National Communication Services, Royal Canadian Mounted Police, As an Individual
Yes.
2:10 p.m.
Liberal
Pam Damoff Liberal Oakville North—Burlington, ON
Ms. Bergerman, would it not make sense that the commissioner was then upset when she spoke to you about the fact she'd been given...? I'm not trying to lay blame with anyone, because I think it was a really important point that the commissioner brought up, that at the time this happened, we were a month into COVID. There was a challenge with people having been sent home. The normal working conditions were not in place.
I mean, I would think that the commissioner would have been upset about her not being in the loop about what was being shared at the press conference.
2:10 p.m.
A/Commr Lee Bergerman
Yes. Well, that makes sense now, why she was upset, but it should have never been shared with her that we were going to release details of weapons and calibres or whatever the ask was. She should never have been told that.
2:10 p.m.
Liberal
Pam Damoff Liberal Oakville North—Burlington, ON
I don't disagree with you on that, but that's what happened. I think it's important to point out that the information was never shared publicly by anyone from the government or anyone else. In fact, the only way that information did become public, if I remember correctly, was through an ATIP request from the media. It's not like this information was leaked in any way. It did remain confidential.
I have only 15 seconds left here. I just think it's important to remember the challenges that COVID presented. I would suspect that had Nova Scotia's borders not been shut down, there would have been resources provided to you in Nova Scotia that were not available to you. Is that a fair assessment?
2:15 p.m.
A/Commr Lee Bergerman
Well, actually, no, because if you were coming into Nova Scotia, even though we had the bubble, and you were coming there to work—it was essential service, basically—then you didn't have to do any of the quarantining.
2:15 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Jim Carr
Thank you very much.
I now move to Ms. Michaud.
You have two and a half minutes in this round. Go ahead.
2:15 p.m.
Bloc
Kristina Michaud Bloc Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
In one of the emails that came to light recently, we saw that the RCMP commissioner told the chief of staff or the office of the Minister of Public Safety that information on the pistols and rifles used by the killer should go no further than the minister's office and the office of the Prime Minister.
However, what we understand from the meeting on April 28, a few days later, is that this position had completely changed. The commissioner seemed to be angry or upset that this information was not going to be made public.
I will address Ms. Bergerman first.
In your opinion, Ms. Bergerman, what caused the commissioner to change her mind in this way? Were there any conversations with you, perhaps, or with ministers' offices, that caused her to radically change her position?
2:15 p.m.
A/Commr Lee Bergerman
I'm unaware of why her position changed. I certainly didn't have any conversations with her about it. I would always rely first on the wishes of SiRT and the wishes of the investigative team at that time because they have the intimate knowledge of what they can and cannot release.
I don't know what changed her position.
2:15 p.m.
Bloc
Kristina Michaud Bloc Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC
Mr. Leather, do you have any idea what might have happened to cause this position to change so dramatically in a matter of days?
I understand that in an investigation like this, some information cannot be revealed in the first few days, but it can be revealed later. I understand that everything can change very quickly. And yet, this still seems like a rather significant shift in position.
What do you think was behind it?
2:15 p.m.
C/Supt Chris Leather
Like Ms. Bergerman, I'm not aware of any conversations. I certainly didn't have any with the commissioner, deputy commissioner or Public Safety Canada. I was not aware of any significant change from the 23rd to the 28th, in terms of the investigation, which would have a shift like that in terms of openness and an ability or a desire to want to share that information with the public. We're talking about the press conference and it going out in the speaking points.
It remains a mystery to me as well.
2:15 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Jim Carr
Thank you very much.
I now turn the questions over to Mr. MacGregor.
Sir, you have two and a half minutes whenever you are ready.
2:15 p.m.
NDP
