Public Safety Committee on June 2nd, 2023

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

Thank you, Mr. Julian.

We'll start our second round. This round is going to have to be abbreviated. We will end after Mr. Julian in the next round. Mr. Julian gets the hammer all the time.

Mr. Motz, if you please, go ahead. You have five minutes.

[Glen Motz, Conservative, Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB]

Well, thank you very much, Chair, and thank you to our witnesses for being here.

I'm just going to carry on with both Mr. Weber and Mr. Sauvé on what Mr. Julian was talking about. I have serious concerns with the current proposal, with resources, given how this legislation is written and how it's going to be proposed to look after both the RCMP and the CBSA. My guess would be that what is being proposed for resources for the PCRC is insufficient just for the RCMP, and that hasn't even included the CBSA yet. That's a huge red flag for me.

While I support wholeheartedly the idea of public oversight and review—it's absolutely necessary in all forms of law enforcement—it is severely under-resourced.

Mr. Sauvé, quickly, I think there's still some confusion, even around this table and in the public, about how the PCRC will be looking after complaints moving forward in the process. You said you don't want police looking after investigating police, and I get that. What you're specifically saying is that you don't want the RCMP to investigate the RCMP. That's not police investigating police, right?

Some of the hybrid models you talked about have law enforcement, retired or current, actually investigating in a hybrid model along with civilian investigators. It works well. I'm from Alberta, and I'm very familiar with that particular process.

In your estimation and as Mr. Julian has asked, is there a process that can be changed in the legislation? More than just saying that we need to add more money and more resources to the PCRC, is there a process we can look at that will make it more efficient, given the current legislation? What do we need to do differently?

[Brian Sauvé]

I don't know if changes to the legislation can improve the process. The current model as it is uses the RCMP to investigate the RCMP, which is police investigating police no matter how you slice it. Even if we download it to the Saskatoon PD to do the CRCC complaints, it's still police investigating the police, and the conflict is there.

The way it is today with those 1,500 files, the majority of those are completed within the 30-day statutory framework.

[Glen Motz, Conservative, Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB]

Right, and that's by the RCMP.

[Brian Sauvé]

Yes, that's by the RCMP.

[Glen Motz, Conservative, Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB]

In reality, the majority of complaints that come in to all law enforcement across this country and that will come into the CBSA are minor types of complaints regarding interactions with the public, attitudes and things like that. Those are, in reality, best suited for resolution with the complainant, with the public, at the detachment level, at the office level. Would you agree with that?

[Brian Sauvé]

I would agree that many—probably about 25%—of these can be resolved informally fairly quickly, with just a phone call or an explanation about—

[Glen Motz, Conservative, Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB]

That's good on both sides. That's good for the public and that's good for the officers.

[Brian Sauvé]

It is, yes.

[Glen Motz, Conservative, Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB]

Mr. Weber, I have only about a minute and 45 seconds left.

You described some very disturbing occurrences within the CBSA. I share your concern. I think what you've described is an incredibly toxic environment between frontline officers and management. I don't know how the PCRC can actually fix that. I think your assessment of a cultural change at the management and upper management levels is absolutely necessary.

Perhaps I'll ask you this question: How do you see the PCRC coming in? How do you think it will impact the frontline officers and the public we're here to serve, and their complaints? How do you see the current legislation fixing this?

I know you will run out of time when the five minutes are up. We would appreciate it if you could give to the committee any recommendations you have after your testimony today that could help us add strength to this legislation.

[Mark Weber]

I can do that quickly—thank you—if I have five seconds.

I think the CBSA needs to focus on not investigating absolutely everything locally. It's become an agency that does everything through formal investigation. The ability to manage or speak to employees has been abandoned at the CBSA. Everything is a formal fact-finding.... I think we can free up a lot of resources if we get back to the way management used to happen—actually having that interaction with employees and not formalizing everything. We'd then have the resources available to deal with the more important stuff.

Again, it's allowing our officers to use the provisions proposed in Bill C-20 in order to bring forward their concerns and complaints.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

Thank you, Mr. Motz.

We go now to Mr. Chiang.

Mr. Chiang, go ahead for five minutes.

[Paul Chiang, Liberal, Markham—Unionville, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Good morning to all the witnesses. Thank you for joining us today.

Mr. Weber, in 2017, the CRCC undertook a systemic investigation into workplace harassment at the RCMP. There is nothing stopping the chair from launching a similar review of the CBSA if she so chose. This was initiated through a letter by then-minister Goodale. There is nothing in the bill that would limit the chair from initiating her own review of the CBSA's culture, once this bill becomes law.

[Mark Weber]

That's good to know. Yes, I think that's an absolutely viable option.

Thank you.

[Paul Chiang, Liberal, Markham—Unionville, ON]

Mr. Weber, are you aware that clause 28 of this bill outlines the powers the chair has to initiate the review of systemic complaints about the CBSA?

[Mark Weber]

Yes, I think what's lacking is the ability of CBSA officers to bring forward complaints.

[Paul Chiang, Liberal, Markham—Unionville, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Weber.

Mr. Sauvé, one thing I'm interested in understanding is the interplay between the PCRC and other provincial police review and oversight agencies. For instance, the RCMP are the police of jurisdiction in Alberta. In that province, there's also the Alberta serious incident response team.

What is your understanding of the different powers and jurisdictions the PCRC would have compared with the Alberta serious incident response team?

[Brian Sauvé]

They are completely different mandates. If you're a member of the RCMP in Alberta or anywhere we provide uniformed policing, even federal policing in Ontario or Quebec, you're subject to three separate oversight bodies.

One is the statutory regime of civilian oversight, such as ASIRT, which investigates complaints of serious harm or death when we happen to invoke use of force. That is where a member of the RCMP could face a criminal charge.

The second one, obviously, is through the RCMP Code of Conduct, which is our disciplinary regime. That is up to and including dismissal.

The third one is the future PCRC, which deals with complaints from the public.

In all of those areas, a member of the RCMP could face an investigation by ASIRT, the RCMP professional standards...and the CRCC. Those are three different levels. There are three possible, different results. One could result in jail time. One could result in dismissal. The third could result in operational and policy changes, or changes to the RCMP itself.

[Paul Chiang, Liberal, Markham—Unionville, ON]

Thank you so much, Mr. Sauvé.

What about data? Is there enough data? Do they have articles about data in the bill?

[Brian Sauvé]

If you were to ask my staff, I'm a big proponent of data. I love data and gathering data, because it tells a story.

Unfortunately, in the RCMP, we haven't been consistent with gathering data, whether it be race-based data or data on anything. The only thing we seem to be good about is “use of force” data.

I would strongly encourage the PCRC to look at exactly what Ms. Campbell was suggesting: implementing a very, very robust system to gather any and all data that is available for interactions with law enforcement in the public or complaints processes.

[Paul Chiang, Liberal, Markham—Unionville, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Sauvé.

Ms. Campbell, this legislation will allow for the collection of disaggregated race data.

Do you believe it is important that this data be collected? Can you speak to how you would like the chairperson of the PCRC to use the data? Is there space to inform systemic reviews?

[Heather Campbell]

Thank you, Mr. Chiang.

Yes, the data should be collected. I believe right now in the bill, it's clause 13, the “Annual report”, that provides for data collection, but it is rather light.

To Mr. Sauvé's point, the RCMP has been developing a national approach to the collection, analysis and reporting of race-based data in policing since probably about July 2020, in collaboration with the Canadian Association of Chiefs of Police and Statistics Canada. That process has been slow, but it is critically important.

The legislation in Alberta lacks in some areas. However, it does require, for a number of street checks or officer contacts or “info posts”, as they're called in Calgary, that exceed the relative statistical demographics of a community, that the chief of police provide a reconciliation and justification to address any overrepresentation of one group, particularly for racialized and indigenous people in the data.

It's important that this data analysis and sharing occur in a distinct fashion at a community level, lest the significance of the data and analysis be diluted to basic ineffectiveness.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

Thank you, Mr. Chiang.

I will now give the floor to Ms. Michaud for two and a half minutes.

[Kristina Michaud, Bloc, Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Weber, when we were discussing systemic issues within the CBSA earlier, you talked about the importance of changing the culture. Just to be clear, I'd like to know if you're proposing that agents, too, be able to turn to the new commission.

Would they be able to lodge complaints with the commission when they encounter a problem involving a superior or a manager? If so, not only the public, but agents, too, on the inside, would be able to turn to the commission.

Is that what you were saying?

[Mark Weber]

It is what I meant.

To bring about real change, again, we have to address things systemically. Right now, the system we have at the CBSA is that if a CBSA employee brings forward complaints against management, it's dealt with by management. That's all that anyone will ever hear of it. As a rule, nothing happens with anything that we put in....

I think it's really important for this commission to know exactly what's going on, so it can look to do those systemic reviews.