Evidence of meeting #39 for Public Safety and National Security in the 45th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was data.
A video is available from Parliament.
Deputy Director, Policy, Canadian Security Intelligence Service
Thank you for your question. I just want to be sure I understand correctly. Are you asking about the integrated threat assessment centre?
Bloc
Claude DeBellefeuille Bloc Beauharnois—Salaberry—Soulanges—Huntingdon, QC
Yes. Do you oversee the centre?
Deputy Director, Policy, Canadian Security Intelligence Service
I, personally, don't oversee the centre, but the director of CSIS does.
Bloc
Claude DeBellefeuille Bloc Beauharnois—Salaberry—Soulanges—Huntingdon, QC
Is respecting the Official Languages Act important to CSIS?
Deputy Director, Policy, Canadian Security Intelligence Service
Yes, of course.
Bloc
Claude DeBellefeuille Bloc Beauharnois—Salaberry—Soulanges—Huntingdon, QC
In the first hour, I spoke to the minister about the fact that francophone CEGEPs in Quebec, among others, receive the centre's assessment reports on threats in Canada on a fairly regular basis. The reports provide the people at the CEGEPs with real-time threat information, so they have that awareness. The reports come out fairly regularly.
I told the minister how angry I was when I saw the response that had come from an employee of the centre. According to the employee, unfortunately the centre didn't have the resources to send out English and French alerts and reports simultaneously, but those interested could consult the centre's website, where the reports would eventually be available.
Do you think that response, showing that anglophones and francophones are treated differently, respects your mandate of protecting Quebeckers and Canadians?
Deputy Director, Policy, Canadian Security Intelligence Service
It is very important to CSIS to communicate in both of Canada's official languages.
It's also important that we communicate with all Canadians, to the extent we can, in the language of their choice, which is why we also translate documents into other languages used in Canada, including some indigenous languages.
Under the Official Languages Act, our employees are able to write in the language of their choice. They will write their assessments in English. They will sometimes write their assessments in French. I would guess that the majority are in English.
Bloc
Claude DeBellefeuille Bloc Beauharnois—Salaberry—Soulanges—Huntingdon, QC
Respectfully, I'm going to stop you there.
What we are talking about here is a publication that was sent to CEGEPs in Quebec, specifically, the one in Jonquière. The communication that was sent to the CEGEP contained one document in French and four or five documents in English. The institution wondered what was going on and why the communication didn't include the same number of documents in French. The centre's response was that it couldn't provide the French documents at the same time, because it didn't have the capacity to do so in real time.
That response is unacceptable. Your job is to protect francophones, anglophones and everyone living in Canada. Right now, however, you're providing better information and more information to anglophones.
With all the translation options out there, that is unacceptable. The translation bureau is busy. I get it, but CSIS has the ability to get it done, especially since your job is to protect people and that hinges on the information you give them.
I wasn't a police officer. I was a social worker and a manager in the public health system, but I know enough to know that when you don't get the information you need in an emergency in the language you need it in, your ability to take the appropriate precautions is hindered.
Everyone is aware of the problem now. What I want to know is what you're going to do to fix it. How are you going to make sure that, from now on, educational institutions and all other French-speaking partners have access to the same quantity and quality of information from the centre? What are you going to do?
Deputy Director, Policy, Canadian Security Intelligence Service
I completely agree that it's very important to make sure that information regarding threats is provided to all Canadians in the language of their choice. I fully agree with that.
I'm not aware of the particular issue or correspondence. My firm commitment to the committee is that I will take that information and look into it, and we will do whatever we can to ensure that the language of choice is respected when we're sending out documents.
Unfortunately, I'm not aware of the particular correspondence in this particular case, but CSIS's commitment is to ensure that we follow the Official Languages Act, and wherever possible, we are putting out material in both official languages.
Bloc
Claude DeBellefeuille Bloc Beauharnois—Salaberry—Soulanges—Huntingdon, QC
I'm glad to hear you make that commitment, but it's going to require an organizational change. This isn't something that allegedly happened; it's a fact, and it's been this way for a while. What it tells me is that CSIS cares less about keeping francophones safe from terrorist threats, because it doesn't have the capacity to give them the information they need.
Starting now, I expect you to make major changes to ensure that your French-speaking partners receive the same quantity and quality of information on terrorist threats in Canada as anglophones do. Do you commit to doing that?
Deputy Director, Policy, Canadian Security Intelligence Service
I completely agree. It is very important that information related to threats be provided to our French-speaking partners. It is essential that all Canadians receive equal protection. That is a very firm commitment on the part of CSIS. What I'm going to do is take note of the situation, ask questions internally and investigate to make sure the information is being provided in both official languages.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Jean-Yves Duclos
Thank you, Mrs. DeBellefeuille.
Ms. Kronis, you may go ahead. You have five minutes.
However, I'll give you one more minute, given that I was a bit too generous to the previous Liberal speaker.
Conservative
Tamara Kronis Conservative Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
My questions will be for Ms. Giles as well.
Most Canadians are familiar, at this point, with foreign interference in our elections. I sit on the human rights subcommittee of the foreign affairs committee. We've been studying transnational repression, whereby, as you know, foreign governments target people—often from their own diaspora communities, but sometimes Canadians who support those diaspora communities and others—both online and in other places.
You were talking about the additional threats we are facing in terms of volume, nature and velocity, and you also talked a lot about the technical implications. I want to apply that to our discussions on Bill C-22. Issues around end-to-end encryption have come to this committee in relation to the bill, and I'd like to get your thoughts on this. Is it fair to say that Canadians who are the subjects of transnational repression in Canada are very dependent on communication mechanisms that have strong end-to-end encryption?
Deputy Director, Policy, Canadian Security Intelligence Service
I think that's a really important question. When it comes to religious, cultural and ethnic communities in Canada that have strong roots in other countries around the world, a number of means of communication are used. The reality is that so many of the publicly available email systems and messaging systems that are used do have encryption built into them. I think from there, it's fair to assume that most Canadians and people in Canada do rely upon different forms of communication, which may or may not have encryption.
Conservative
Tamara Kronis Conservative Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC
Is it fair to say that those who are being targeted by foreign regimes would face, in some cases, serious personal danger if some of the secure mechanisms that they depend on are compromised?
Deputy Director, Policy, Canadian Security Intelligence Service
I think that when it comes to the threats that individuals are facing in Canada, they can come through a variety of mechanisms. When it comes to foreign interference being perpetrated in Canada, if there are foreign states trying to interfere in a deceptive or covert way with the communications of Canadians and to use that information to bring them harm, it is certainly something that would be a priority for CSIS to examine and to ensure that we're able to work with our domestic partners to combat it.
Conservative
Tamara Kronis Conservative Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC
As we know, these are not hypothetical threats. There have literally been murders in the last year that have been linked to this kind of foreign interference and transnational repression.
What I'm wondering is whether the government has conducted any threat assessments specifically examining how lawful access capability requirements could affect communities vulnerable to transnational repression and those who CSIS is helping in this regard?
Deputy Director, Policy, Canadian Security Intelligence Service
I think that's, again, a really excellent observation and an excellent question.
What we have done in our examination of the work on Bill C-22 is to try to understand where it is that there are gaps in our lawful access system and where plugging those gaps and bringing our lawful access framework up to the standards of our allies, including European allies and Five Eyes allies, would allow us to better protect Canadians, including from transnational repression.
We believe that having a lawful access regime will better enable us to protect victims of foreign interference and transnational repression in Canada, as well as a number of other threats.
Conservative
Tamara Kronis Conservative Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC
Sometimes when we're trying to help people, we inadvertently have unintended consequences of that. I'm asking about the other implications of it and whether or not the assessments included the possibility that weakened encryption standards or the requirement to have back doors could be exploited by foreign actors looking to do Canadians harm.
Deputy Director, Policy, Canadian Security Intelligence Service
I can be very clear that there is no expectation and no requirement certainly for back doors to be put in place through Bill C-22. There are not to be any systemic vulnerabilities that are introduced as part of part 2 of Bill C-22. If service providers are concerned about those systemic vulnerabilities, they are able to avail themselves of a number of various steps, including up to judicial review, to challenge that.
Conservative
Tamara Kronis Conservative Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC
With all due respect, judicial review is too late when somebody's come up to your doorstep and put a bullet through your front door.
The issue that I'm asking about is this. We've had a number of experts at this committee who have made it clear that despite the intentions of this bill, there is the reality that encryption could be weakened. The minister himself has indicated that he is willing to accept amendments on this to get it right.
I'm asking you this from a safety and security perspective: Is it important that we get it right?
Deputy Director, Policy, Canadian Security Intelligence Service
From CSIS's perspective, it's always important that the legislation that's put in place is there to protect Canadians. The parliamentary process always involves quite a bit of back and forth as Parliament works in the best interests of Canadians to ensure that we have the best possible legislation.
I think the minister has expressed his interest in amendments, and we'll certainly support that.
Conservative
Tamara Kronis Conservative Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC
If we get this wrong.... The question I'm asking you is not about whether or not you believe we've struck the right balance. The question is about if we get this wrong.
In the context of the velocity, the volume and the nature, and the changing technology that's out there, is it important to get this right to make sure that people's lives are not at risk?
Deputy Director, Policy, Canadian Security Intelligence Service
It's always important to ensure that we get the legislation right, and having a proper lawful access regime in place will ensure that we can better protect Canadians.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Jean-Yves Duclos
Thank you very much for this intervention.
Over to you, Ms. Dandurand, for five minutes.