Evidence of meeting #33 for Science and Research in the 45th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was vehicles.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Liberal
Taleeb Noormohamed Liberal Vancouver Granville, BC
Obviously, requirements under PIPEDA apply to any vehicles, any software and any data that is collected and stored in Canada. Is that correct?
Senior Fellow, University of Ottawa, As an Individual
I didn't quite get the question.
Liberal
Taleeb Noormohamed Liberal Vancouver Granville, BC
PIPEDA applies to all transactions being done in Canada, whether it's data collected or so on and so forth. That, to my understanding, applies to any EVs, theoretically Chinese and others, that come to Canada. Is that correct?
Senior Fellow, University of Ottawa, As an Individual
I don't know. That's something I don't—
Liberal
Taleeb Noormohamed Liberal Vancouver Granville, BC
Okay. The agreement, if it does.... I think this is one of the things that we need to dissect a bit, because I want to make sure, like you, that Canadians are kept safe.
There are several separate issues. One is, of course, the issue related to labour and China. There's the issue related to making sure we're protecting jobs in this country and the issues related to how Canadian data is stored. I want to make sure that in these conversations, all of which are important, we're not conflating one with the other and vice versa. Sometimes we have a tendency in short spurts of questions to try to conflate one with the other.
For me, there are really three batches of things that we need to interrogate. One is obviously the issues related to labour in this country and in China. There's the issue of jobs in this country versus the export of jobs to others. The third, then, is the issue of data.
When it comes to the privacy protections of Canadians, this is something that has come up in previous conversations. There's been an acknowledgement that privacy laws in this country should apply and do apply to any vehicles that are imported. I would observe and I would consider that under the agreement we have to bring in the 49,000 Chinese EVs, this applies to them as well. We should all, I think, take a moment to figure that out, because I think it does then address that particular piece of the conversation.
When we go to the issue of jobs in this country—I would pose this to you, Professor McCuaig-Johnston and then to Mr. Shipley—the reality is that vehicles made in this country have components that have come, fortunately or otherwise, from different places, whether it's the U.S. or it's China, and so on and so forth, and those components go into Canadian-made vehicles.
Canadian-made auto jobs right now are not growing. Is there an opportunity for us to work with Chinese manufacturers to create jobs in this country? Do you think that's something that as a government we should be looking at?
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Salma Zahid
I'm sorry for interrupting The time is up. Maybe you can come back to those questions in the second round.
With that, we will proceed to MP Blanchette-Joncas for six minutes.
Please go ahead, MP Blanchette-Joncas.
Bloc
Maxime Blanchette-Joncas Bloc Rimouski—La Matapédia, QC
Thank you, Madam Chair.
I welcome the witnesses who are with us today.
My first questions will be directed to Ms. McCuaig‑Johnston.
Ms. McCuaig‑Johnston, it is a pleasure to have you here with us again.
The government has already deemed it necessary to impose a surtax—
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Salma Zahid
I'm sorry for interrupting. There's a translation issue. We'll stop the clock so that we can look into it.
Now it's good. Please go ahead.
Bloc
Maxime Blanchette-Joncas Bloc Rimouski—La Matapédia, QC
Ms. McCuaig‑Johnston, the government has already deemed it necessary to impose a 100% surtax on Chinese electric vehicles. That wasn't that long ago. It was in August 2024.
In your view, what has changed, concretely, to the point where this opening is now acceptable—that is, allowing tens of thousands of Chinese vehicles to enter the market?
Senior Fellow, University of Ottawa, As an Individual
I wrote a brief to the government, to the Department of Finance, leading into that 100% tariff, and nothing has changed substantively regarding the vehicles. All of the reasons.... There were multiple reasons why the government put on the tariff.
Nothing has changed, except that we needed to solve the canola problem and China has now learned that it can use canola as leverage. I fear that it's doing that in asking the Canadian government to support China in becoming a member of the CPTPP. You know, maybe if we don't do that, our canola will be at risk.
Bloc
Maxime Blanchette-Joncas Bloc Rimouski—La Matapédia, QC
On April 17, 2025, the Prime Ministerstated that the greatest threat to our security was China. Today, we are entering into a trade agreement with people who, according to the Prime Minister, are the greatest threat to our security.
Given your expertise, what are your observations on this matter?
What message does this send to other countries that are our allies?
Senior Fellow, University of Ottawa, As an Individual
We will always trade with China. The question is how you protect yourself from what are, in many cases, obvious risks. That's one of the things we're here talking about today: the range of risks that we face with this deal.
We've seen a lot of commentary on the risk of the agreement between the RCMP and the security police, the same security police that set up police stations across Canada, Chinese police stations, and in other countries as well.
There is a range of risks, and in taking China's approach of “strategic partnership”—that's their language—and having their requirements for what they call a “stable” relationship with China, and being “pragmatic”, which is the Chinese language they put into their readouts, Canada has gone, in my view, a bit too far, in that I thought we could have put something else on the table to relieve canola, something like investment in conventional energy rather than EVs. I think EVs are too big a risk.
Bloc
Maxime Blanchette-Joncas Bloc Rimouski—La Matapédia, QC
I understand.
During your appearance before the Standing Committee on Science and Research on September 25, 2023, you said that Canada should not give its resources to China.
When it comes to electric vehicles, don't you see a bit of that kind of compromise?
Doesn't this agreement risk, precisely, repeating the mistake you already denounced a few years ago?
Senior Fellow, University of Ottawa, As an Individual
I am just looking for clarification. I am a big supporter of electric vehicles, especially Canadian companies in that market. I'm pleased to see that we are going to have witnesses later on in this meeting on that subject. I am in favour of that.
To the extent that we can partner safely with people in China, that would be good, but I would raise a lot of big red flags about those partnerships. We have to be very careful about how we do it.
Bloc
Maxime Blanchette-Joncas Bloc Rimouski—La Matapédia, QC
Indeed.
I want to come back to the red flags you mentioned.
I'd like to hear your thoughts on Canada's current foreign policy.
The government has made certain statements. It's the same government—we've just changed the bus driver—but it's as if, now, human rights are no longer being taken into account when establishing economic partnerships.
How is it possible to say one thing just a few months ago and do the exact opposite today?
What is your opinion on this?
Senior Fellow, University of Ottawa, As an Individual
This is why it's really important to get back on track on forced labour. One of the things that we were asking for in a letter that we sent to the Prime Minister is something that actually is in a Bloc bill, which is legislation that will have something like what's called legally a “rebuttable presumption” about the goods mined in high-risk areas. The Prime Minister has said that China has geographic areas that are higher risk, and that we have to do more due diligence for those areas. The Prime Minister recognizes that very clearly. He himself in his previous life had actually done work on the issues related to forced labour and has supported organizations on that subject. I think he's had to compromise some of his own values, and that's regrettable. I think it's up to committees like this to help him with the risk management in this regard.
Bloc
Maxime Blanchette-Joncas Bloc Rimouski—La Matapédia, QC
Thank you.
Ms. McCuaig‑Johnston, if I recall correctly, the Prime Minister was the United Nations Special Envoy for Climate Finance. He said that we shouldn't—
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Salma Zahid
I'm sorry for interrupting. The time is up. Maybe you can come back to the questions in the second round.
With that, the first round comes to an end. We will begin our second round of five minutes and two and a half minutes. We will start with MP DeRidder for five minutes.
Please go ahead.
Conservative
Kelly DeRidder Conservative Kitchener Centre, ON
Thank you, Madam Chair.
Ms. McGuaig-Johnston, do you agree with both Clean Energy Canada's statement and mine earlier in our study that forced labour should unequivocally not be a part of our supply chain, yes or no?
Conservative
Kelly DeRidder Conservative Kitchener Centre, ON
Can you explain to Canadians how forced labour is connected to EV production, backed by the Human Rights Watch 2024 report on forced labour specifically related to EVs?
Senior Fellow, University of Ottawa, As an Individual
In China, there have been mass transfers of Uyghurs to places of work that have been set up, usually out in very rural areas where they are made to work to produce aluminum. They also work in coal mines. Both coal mines and aluminum are part of the inputs to EVs. It's through the aluminum that we see.... It's in dozens of parts, in the engine blocks and the wheels internally in the car that we get this forced labour.
The regulation that has been passed forbids anybody to ask about that. What do you do in the face of that? Clearly, China doesn't like people asking about forced labour. They've just brought in a regulation to the effect that nobody can ask about it, so what do we do? It's “Oh, okay, we'll just accept that. We'll accept all of your products, and we just won't ask any questions about forced labour.”
Conservative
Kelly DeRidder Conservative Kitchener Centre, ON
I'm asking you these questions today because I do not accept just not talking about it. Do you think that advocates like Clean Energy Canada should reconsider saying that this is a pro-Canadian choice, considering that our Canadian auto workers are up against forced labour and considering our Canadian values?
Senior Fellow, University of Ottawa, As an Individual
It's up against forced labour in China. This isn't just a handful of people. In 2024, there were 3.4 million Uyghurs transferred into jobs like this in forced labour. That's a large number of people. These are people working in slave conditions, and it's not just in China. It's in Brazil and Hungary.
Ms. Doran mentioned the BYD plant in Hungary. I'm glad she did. She should look up Hungary, BYD and slave labour, because forced labour has been shown in the hundreds—some 350—Chinese workers who built the plant in Hungary, and now the authorities there are investigating. In Brazil, the government fined BYD $10 million, because of forced labour in that plant. For BYD, which plans to have $2.4 billion in sales across South America, that's just the cost of doing business.
Conservative
Kelly DeRidder Conservative Kitchener Centre, ON
Would it not be better, in your opinion, for us to focus more on a trade deal with the U.S. and focus more on CUSMA for Canadian values instead of putting irritants like this EV trade deal in place?