Status of Women Committee on Oct. 31st, 2006

[Dr. Brian Grant]

I have trouble with the question because I don't have the information to draw this link. I'm not aware of the information to draw the link.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

That's fine. Thank you very much.

Maybe you could ask them afterwards, once the meeting is over.

Ms. Mathyssen, please.

[Irene Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Sergeant Kelly, could we continue to discuss the case around Mr. Ng? You indicated that there's a lack of understanding in terms of the judiciary and a lack of education, and that we need tougher sentences and to confiscate his property in order to put a predator like this out of business. Are there other barriers that police face in terms of going after these predators, these people who are clearly making victims of the innocent?

[Sgt Matt Kelly]

I suppose the barriers are the victims themselves. Those are the biggest barriers. Detective Constable Holm spoke to it, and so did my friends from Toronto. You have to establish that trust and get the reputation of your vice unit out there to the NGOs and the other people who offer services for the exit of women from the sex trade. You have to ensure that you have good relationships built there so that everyone down the line trusts everyone to be professional. Then, when the victim is ready, we can all do something about it.

But right now, when you're brought in from another country and you have false documentation, and when you're put down into a cage in the basement when you're not working and you're told you will get thrown in prison the moment you come forward or you will be deported and be thrown in prison in your country of origin, you believe it. When you have very young, inexperienced women being moved around the world, who do they have as a support structure? The first thing any pimp does to a girl is remove her support structures, cut the family out, isolate her.

So it takes a huge leap of trust for those victims to come forward, as was the case in our file.

[Det Michelle Holm]

I would just say generally that it's a huge step for them to have these girls tell us their story, given the language barrier, the cultural barriers, the loss of face. You can imagine how embarrassed they are and what their level of self-esteem is when we do deal with these women. You can't imagine how difficult it is to get them to tell us their story truthfully.

I can understand why they're embarrassed to tell us everything, but if they mislead us in any way or skip parts of their story to save face or to save embarrassment to their family, it makes prosecutions very difficult. We really have to spend a lot of time in gaining the trust of these victims so that they truly know they can tell us anything and have to tell us everything so that we can properly assess the file.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Thank you.

Ms. Davidson.

[Patricia Davidson, Conservative, Sarnia—Lambton, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chairman.

I want to thank all the presenters, because it has certainly been an extremely enlightening presentation today.

My first question is going to be for Sergeant Kelly, please.

You were talking about the Immigration and Refugee Protection Act. The penalties could be up to life in prison or up to a million dollars. It's my understanding that no one has been convicted under this act at this point. Is Mr. Ng being tried under that act?

[Sgt Matt Kelly]

Yes.

[Patricia Davidson, Conservative, Sarnia—Lambton, ON]

When might we expect that ruling to be delivered?

[Det Michelle Holm]

The trial is continuing in March 2007.

[Sgt Matt Kelly]

The judge will more than likely reserve judgment in order to give a written decision because of the complexities of the case. The actual decision will probably be made sometime in April or May.

And remember that Mr. Ng hasn't spent any time behind bars. Mr. Ng was released back into the community, and he has very strict restrictions. He is not to be in possession of his passport, so that he can't travel. Of course, he had false passports manufactured for these women in the group that he is involved in, so how hard will it be for Mr. Ng to get a false passport?

So those are some of the restrictions. We don't understand why he wasn't held in custody.

[Patricia Davidson, Conservative, Sarnia—Lambton, ON]

Right, and I don't either.

[Sgt Matt Kelly]

You share my pain.

[Patricia Davidson, Conservative, Sarnia—Lambton, ON]

But I think everybody here is aware that there has been legislation introduced that would crack down on crime. I'm not trying to be partisan here and put you in a position where you're speaking in favour of one party against the other; that's not my intent at all. My intent is to try to get the message out that we are very serious about the protection of women and children. There have been attempts at this point to change and water down some of the issues and some of the proposals that have been put forward so that there isn't as much protection, in my view.

I think it's an extremely important issue and something we have to carry forward. Do you have any specific views about what might be a go-forward direction for the government when it comes to putting legislation in place that is going to not only protect women and children, but make it possible for you as police officers to do your job?

[Sgt Matt Kelly]

The creation of section 279 of the Criminal Code of Canada, on domestic human trafficking, and all of the subsections that flow from it are an excellent start. There's even the ability within that section now to return to the victim some monetary goods or moneys for their victimization. Creating the domestic language is a good first step that the government has taken, because as Mr. Grant suggested, IRPA only takes place when you've crossed an international boundary. So we've made a good first step.

Don't join the bandwagon of decriminalizing. You can call a car “pre-owned”, but to me it's “used”. When you decriminalize it, as far as we're concerned in policing, we're not going after that crime anymore, because it's not our mandate anymore. If you take section 213, which is the communication law, and say we'll chuck that out, then you eliminate our ability to go after the johns, the consumers, in the sex game.

The Green River killer in the United States, in Washington state, was a john. Jack the Ripper was a john. If you eliminate our ability to enforce laws against the johns who make these contacts on the street, you're doing Canada a disservice.

Decriminalizing section 213 is not the answer. Rather, having minimum sentences for the consumers would be a better solution, or having an improvement in laws against pimps. It's very difficult to put a pimp in jail. The girl has to turn. She fears him a hell of a lot more than she fears the laws and the sentences that exist right now in Canada.

So that would be a good first step. We have section 279; that's good. Let's strengthen some of our other laws. And rather than listen to people talk about the Dutch experience, let's listen to people talking about what they're doing in Sweden, where they're going after the consumers. My dad, my uncle, my brothers don't go out and buy sexual services. This isn't normal behaviour for men. Let's go after the ones who are abnormal.

[Patricia Davidson, Conservative, Sarnia—Lambton, ON]

Mr. Grant, you talked about our needing to ensure that protection is more promptly available and complementary aspects of the federal response. Could you just briefly specify what those may be? We've talked about a lot of different things, but could you be very specific about what those complementary responses could be?

[Dr. Brian Grant]

One complementary response is the issue of protection and what physical protection is required. When we address a case, we identify whether the victim is in need of immediate protection. If she is, then we'll bring the police in to provide it.

There has been an issue raised about housing for the victim. This is an issue we are dealing with within the federal working group of which CIC is one member. It is not an easy issue to work with, because of the nature of these cases.

We've looked at a number of approaches. There was a mention earlier of the witness protection program. There's consideration of whether it would be a model that could be followed. In the case of the services that are provided to immigrants, we looked at that issue. Unfortunately, the groups that provide these services are not able to provide the level of security that would be required in these cases. So we're still, as I say, grappling within the working group with the question of what could be provided.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Thank you very much.

Let me thank all of our witnesses for the incredible amount of assistance that you've given our committee this morning. To all of you on the front line, thank you for all your contributions to making our country safe and for the work that you're into. I don't think any of us say thank you enough to all of you. Thank you all very much for your contributions today.

Thank you to the committee. Before you leave, I do need to ask you about Monday, November 6, when we have a special meeting on gender-based analysis. We have five confirmed as attending.

Ms. Minna has asked to speak to this issue.

[Maria Minna, Liberal, Beaches—East York, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair; I appreciate it.

As you know, I had asked for my motion for this particular meeting. Unfortunately I didn't anticipate that the chosen date would be a Monday.

I have a specialist's meeting, and you know how hard it is to get a specialist. It has to do with my migraine suffering. That's the reality. They've increased considerably in the last month. During the week we were off, I had four in three days. I'm not quite sure why.

I need to see the specialist and I was hoping that I would be able to be part of the discussion. I know there are other members who may not be, and I'm wondering whether the committee would be willing to schedule that on another Monday. Any other Monday is fine with me; I just can't do November 6.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Is it the will of the committee that we look to reschedule it on another Monday? Would a Wednesday afternoon be better?

[Maria Minna, Liberal, Beaches—East York, ON]

I don't know.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

I suggest that the clerk poll the members to find out whether a Monday or a Wednesday afternoon would be more suitable for everyone.

Ms. Neville, you had sent around a letter to the editor. Could we deal with it quickly? Did you want to speak to that?

[Anita Neville, Liberal, Winnipeg South Centre, MB]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I asked to table a letter that I sent to the editor of the Winnipeg Free Press about ten days ago. They were slow in publishing it; it was in response to an editorial in the Winnipeg Free Press that was cited in the House of Commons and was quite misleading as to my position.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Thank you very much.

Thank you all very much for your patience. We will deal with Ms. Minna's motion first thing on Thursday morning. Please provide any comments to it in writing; they'll be circulated so that we can deal with that motion as the first thing and not take time away from our witnesses.

Thank you all very much.

The meeting is adjourned.