Status of Women Committee on Oct. 31st, 2006

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Fine. I am going to be making a decision.

[Maria Mourani, Bloc, Ahuntsic, QC]

Are you okay with that, Ms. Stronach?

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Because Ms. Smith has raised a point of order, I want to make sure that ruling is accurate.

We'll hold down voting on this motion and the amendments until Thursday. I need everything in writing that anyone is attempting to move as an amendment to this, so we can have this looked at in advance of Thursday. We have too many other things on this agenda; we must move forward.

Is the committee agreeable to do that?

Ms. Smith.

[Joy Smith, Conservative, Kildonan—St. Paul, MB]

The only problem I have is that I've looked at the list of witnesses for Thursday and we're packed with very important witnesses. What Ms. Mourani said I have no problem with. It makes sense. We have made the statement that all women are equal in Canada, period, and our only point was, whether you use the words “barriers” or “equalities” or whatever, that has to be addressed. So that's not like saying “reinstate equality”, because under the Constitution this is what we strive for: to make sure that all the barriers are....

Can we take a quick stab at what Ms. Mourani said, in light of what Ms. Stronach said—

[Maria Minna, Liberal, Beaches—East York, ON]

No, because we have to accept amendment to our motion and—

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Hold on, I have to deal with the amendment first, and then—

[Roger Valley, Liberal, Kenora, ON]

I have a point of order, Madam Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Yes, Mr. Valley. I'm sorry, you were trying to—

[Roger Valley, Liberal, Kenora, ON]

I was looking at Ms. Smith very clearly and I understood she pulled her motion. We can't amend something that's not on the floor. She's having another discussion now.

The order of business that was followed was that she was pulling it, so I don't know what's changed.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

I had suggested it because she had raised it on a point of order. There was no agreement to pull it or not, but we had discussed it from that perspective.

[Joy Smith, Conservative, Kildonan—St. Paul, MB]

Conversely, an easier way, Madam Chair, would be simply to change the word “reinstate”. If Ms. Stronach could change the word to “affirm” equality.

[Some hon. members]

No.

[Joy Smith, Conservative, Kildonan—St. Paul, MB]

Could we, then—

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Ms. Smith, I'm sorry. You raised a point of order. I am going to sustain my decision on that point of order until Thursday's meeting. Any amendments that are going to be put on the table must be done in writing to the clerk as soon as possible, and we will deal with this item as the first order of business on Thursday morning.

We are going to move on now to the issue of human trafficking. In our discussions here, we need to focus. We've had a number of witnesses already and we need to be very clear on the issue of human trafficking and what we are going to focus on. We've heard about the exploitation of domestic workers, agricultural workers, and workers in the hotel industry. It's such a very broad issue that it would seem to me, based on the witnesses we've heard, that we need to decide which section to tackle, because there are so many things that need to be done and that we would all like to do.

Ms. Smith has made it quite clear that she would like us to focus on the sexual exploitation avenue. Are the rest of the committee members in agreement?

Could we have everybody's attention, please? We need to be looking at what we are going to focus on in this issue of human trafficking. We've reached a point at which our analysts need us to focus a little more clearly. Is everyone in agreement that we would focus on the sexual exploitation part of human trafficking rather than the domestic workers and agricultural sectors and so on, and do those at a later date if the committee chooses?

If we want to get a report in for December, which we also need to think about, we need to look at our timelines and look at our witness list to see if they are all on sexual exploitation, if that's what we want to report on first.

Ms. Minna was first; then it's Ms. Mourani.

[Maria Minna, Liberal, Beaches—East York, ON]

Madam Chair, I don't have a problem with that, although some of the abuse and some of the trafficking does happen within the manufacturing industry.

My suggestion would be that we focus entirely on what is happening within Canada. I know we would have to make reference to countries where some of the trafficking is coming from, but up until now we've been talking with witnesses about trafficking within Europe, within Africa, within Asia, and while that's interesting, it's too broad. We can't deal with the world. We can't fix the world.

I would very much like to focus on trafficking within Canada--how it's affecting Canada, where it is in Canada, and how it can be rooted out. We can deal with it so that any recommendations we might suggest--legislation or what have you--can in fact be implemented by our government.

If it's an international issue, we need to start negotiating. There's the UN. There are other countries. While it's a topic that can take us all over the world, I don't think we can fix the world. We aren't going to be able to do it justice, in any case, in the time that we have.

So I would suggest, Madam Chair, if the committee agrees, that we focus our attention and deal with human trafficking strictly as it affects Canada and what's happening within Canada. We should deal with the Canadian situation. In that context, then, I think we will end up dealing with some of the problems within manufacturing and with slave labour, practically, because it does happen.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Ms. Mourani is next.

[Maria Mourani, Bloc, Ahuntsic, QC]

Madam Chair, after having heard a number of witnesses, it appears that a fundamental problem regarding human trafficking lies in its definition.

It would be important to rethink the definition. Having heard all the witnesses, we could redefine human trafficking. Redefining human trafficking would be invaluable, and would even have a global impact. And were the UN to take note, that would be an invaluable contribution.

Unfortunately, I believe that we need to take a comprehensive look at the phenomenon. That way, we will be able to bring together as many elements as possible so that, from the outset of our work, we can define our parameters regarding the definition of human trafficking. Human trafficking can serve a number of purposes, including sexual exploitation and labour exploitation in such areas as agriculture and domestic work.

Ultimately, this committee needs to produce a report setting out our vision of the status of women and human trafficking, and backing up our recommendations in this regard.

In my opinion, we would have to distinguish between human trafficking for labour exploitation in such areas as agriculture and domestic work, and human trafficking for sexual exploitation.

We therefore need to take a comprehensive look at the issue, in order to draw such a conclusion. If we focus solely on sexual exploitation, people might ask us how we arrived at such a definition. We would not be as credible then as if we had taken a comprehensive look at the issue.

Each of us has their own concerns and can ask specific questions to witnesses, whether it be regarding sexual exploitation or labour exploitation in such areas as agriculture and domestic work.

I do hope that the committee's work will lead to another premise: prostitution is not work, but slavery and sexual exploitation. As well, based on that theme, I have to distinguish between what is work and what is not.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Thank you very much.

Ms. Smith.

[Joy Smith, Conservative, Kildonan—St. Paul, MB]

We are a global community now, and a lot of people are landed immigrants, are from other countries. Number one, we have to look at it in terms of sexual exploitation. What Ms. Mourani is talking about is looking at whether or not prostitution is an industry, which we do not believe to be the case. I would not like to get into looking at factories and things like that, because we should deal with that aspect in the second half, when we look at women's economy. That's part of the labour part and the worker part we should do after Christmas. It's a very important part. We have a very short time right now--only a few weeks. We have great witnesses lined up to talk about the growing crime of human trafficking for sexual purposes. That has a great link to prostitution. We really have to focus on that. I would concur with what Ms. Mourani said and only do it in the second part when we're looking at women's economic development, because then we can talk about the different industries.

We really need to focus in the next few weeks. The clerk's office has gone to a lot of trouble to help us out in getting some very good witnesses. I do not want to see any of those witnesses cancelled. We made a plan, and it behooves us to continue with that plan. We have Christmas break coming up very shortly. We have about five weeks left, Madam Chair. I think we should stay the course right now.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Are there any further comments? Just so we know and the analysts know, we are going to focus on continuing to deal specifically with sexual exploitation in human trafficking, including trying to come up with a definition. It could be all part of the same thing.

Mr. Stanton.

[Bruce Stanton, Conservative, Simcoe North, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

If I could, I'd like to add to that. I think Ms. Minna was on the right track here in terms of trying to keep this focused by keeping it in the Canadian environment. There is no doubt that even at the Canadian level it's still a broad dimension, it still affects and reaches into areas of our economy that are beyond just the sexual exploitation side, but by keeping it here we're naturally then going to be forced to look at what remedies, what tools, we could use legislatively. Ultimately, we want to come up with some kind of response.

With this having such a global dimension, this phenomenon, much of that is out of our purview. Keeping it focused on sexual exploitation is the right thing to do, but I think the report should mention, because we've had good witness testimony that speaks to the broader aspects of this, how it reaches beyond that. But everything I've heard to date suggests that 90% of what we're seeing in human trafficking arises out of the sexual exploitation, in particular women and children, and that's where the lion's share of this is at. I must say, to go on, that is the most devastating aspect of this phenomenon to our society from a social point of view, and that's where our focus should be--in the Canadian context.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Ms. Mourani.

[Maria Mourani, Bloc, Ahuntsic, QC]

Madam Chair, I share the opinion of my colleagues, Mr. Stanton, Ms. Smith and Mina. In fact, given the little time at our disposal, we could deal exclusively with human trafficking for sexual exploitation.

However, I want it to be noted in the reports that there are other forms of human trafficking related to work. In addition, I hope that we make a clear distinction between human trafficking for sexual exploitation, which is not work but a form of slavery and exploitation, and human trafficking for work in agriculture and other areas, which is another form of slavery for work purposes. These are two different forms.

I therefore would like to make a distinction between reducing someone to slavery for work in the fields and reducing someone to slavery for prostitution. I would also like that our study lead us to identify key elements to show that prostitution is not work. It will then be up to us to pass judgment.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Okay.

Ms. Mathyssen.

[Irene Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

While I do agree that we do need to make sure our discussion doesn't become overwhelming, and it needs to be narrowed, I do want some assurances that the discussion of slavery in terms of the agricultural sector, the domestic sector, domestic labour, and the garment industry is part of our discussion in the spring, because I must disagree: as horrific as sexual exploitation is, some of the stories we hear from women and their families in regard to these other sectors are just as horrific, and that needs to be on the table.