Status of Women Committee on Oct. 31st, 2006

[Maria Minna, Liberal, Beaches—East York, ON]

My question, Mr. Grant, was a little different. Obviously the fear of deportation is major for a lot of the victims. First we need to look after them physically and in some way protect them. Then if deportation wasn't the obvious final end, but instead there was a permit that allowed the victim to apply for status so that they're not automatically turfed, would that help a great deal for some of them to come forward voluntarily?

[Dr. Brian Grant]

What we're providing is a temporary permit for victims just to get their feet underneath them. It's not a new immigration class. If the person wants to stay longer, they can apply under humanitarian and compassionate grounds, or if they think they're a refugee, they can apply as a refugee. It's not permanent.

[Maria Minna, Liberal, Beaches—East York, ON]

Mr. Hamel, I think you're trying to say something.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Go ahead quickly, then, Mr. Hamel.

[Det Sgt Michel Hamel]

If you're going prosecute these offenders for these serious crimes, for prosecution purposes you need to have your victims come to court. That's why I'm recommending that the permit be extended for court purposes--not to the discretion of anybody, but for court purposes--until the case is over.

[Dr. Brian Grant]

That would be if it is appropriate.

We ask the victim if they are interested in participating with the police, either in an investigation or in an appearance as a witness. If the victim says yes and is prepared to appear as a witness, then we can extend the permit if it's appropriate for them to stay in Canada, or they might return to their home country and come back when they have to appear.

All of that can be done, but in the first instance when somebody is brought before us, the police usually don't have sufficient information to tell us a charge is going to be laid and the case is going to proceed, so it's the 120-day permit. It can be revisited at any point.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Ms. Mourani is next.

[Maria Mourani, Bloc, Ahuntsic, QC]

I would like to thank all our witnesses here today. I will ask a series of questions, and you may then respond.

I have two questions for Mr. Kelly. I would like to hear you talk about the connections between Toronto and Montreal with regard to human trafficking for the purpose of sexual exploitation. Is there such a thing as interprovincial trafficking for the purposes of sexual exploitation? We hear a lot recently about street gangs that, if you will, export young Quebec girls to certain areas of Toronto. A lot has also been heard about Niagara Falls. I would like to know what the interprovincial links are.

Furthermore, you also spoke about increasing the age of consent and having harsher sentences.

You did speak about this, didn't you?

It was you, Madam? Very well. You may also answer my question regarding increasing the age of consent and having harsher sentences.

Why do you think that harsher sentences and an increase in the age of consent are solutions? What is the rationale behind that? Why would these measures be effective?

Mr. Hamel, I have a few questions for you. You raised an important issue concerning the witness protection program. You said that sex trade victims were ignored. I would like to know why, because I find that rather strange.

You also said that artist visas should be abolished. Would you not agree that they should be improved instead? After all, there are true artists that come to perform here. How could we improve those visas?

I have one last, more general question for all our witnesses. I am not talking about prostitution, which is not illegal and not criminalized in Canada, but about pimping and procuring. Do you think we would have an even worst system than the current one if we decriminalized an legalized procuring? Or do you think that legalizing procuring is a good solution, so as to have store front windows full of women, etc., like in certain countries?

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

You have about three minutes for answers.

[Sgt Matt Kelly]

The first question you directed towards me, but you were really talking about Toronto and Montreal. Currently we have a case that we're trying in Vancouver with a link to Toronto. We're working on a domestic human trafficking case there—not believed to be organized crime.

I'll turn over the other questions to my friends from Toronto to answer.

[Det Sgt Kim Scanlan]

I'll answer the ones you posed in my direction and also that one.

It's commonly known that women in the sex trade area are moved quite often to avoid detection by the police. So they will be moved from Montreal to Toronto to Niagara Falls—to the larger urban centres where there are consumers waiting for them.

In the area you said about harsher penalties, I feel that whenever you give a harsher sentence, it should be a deterrent. So in this area of child exploitation, the sentences I see are not very great. I think that it would go a long way if they were higher than what they're getting now.

In the area of age of consent, the age of protection, we have 14- and 15-year-old young people, male and female, who are.... Consumers are coming to Canada because they know that our age of consent is so low. We're really making them very vulnerable. We have one of the lowest ages of consent in all the world, and it would be important to move that, so we'd protect them from predators.

[Sgt Matt Kelly]

Canadians think of sex destination countries as the rest of the world's problem. That's a problem in the Philippines, in Thailand. Vancouver is a sex destination city.

[Det Sgt Michel Hamel]

You asked me about the three-month permits for victims.

[Maria Mourani, Bloc, Ahuntsic, QC]

My question was rather about the witness protection program and the cancellation of artist visas.

[Det Sgt Michel Hamel]

I am not saying that everyone should be denied a visa. Visas would only be denied to those whom we know have been recruited in their country of origin for purposes of prostitution. Those people should not be able to enter the country.

[Maria Mourani, Bloc, Ahuntsic, QC]

Are the visa officers trained in that area? Do they know how to determine if someone is coming here for purposes of prostitution or some other similar activity?

[Det Sgt Michel Hamel]

I will give you an example of something that happened in Toronto. A club owner travelled to the Philippines to recruit women. It was clear, from the photos that we saw, that these women were not simply dancers. In cases such as that one, a visa should either include a number of restrictions or should be denied outright.

[Maria Mourani, Bloc, Ahuntsic, QC]

Should we not simply refuse to grant a visa to all of the establishments in the sex trade, such as bars, strip clubs, escort agencies, massage parlours, etc.?

[Det Sgt Michel Hamel]

The people who come here are not necessarily all sex trade workers. I am sure that there are worthy candidates who have something good to offer the industry, but if their stock-in trade is sex and prostitution, the visa should be denied.

[Maria Mourani, Bloc, Ahuntsic, QC]

Please tell me if I am mistaken or if I have misunderstood your comments. Are you saying that there are two types of sex industry, one good and one bad?

[Det Sgt Michel Hamel]

That is not what I am saying at all. If there is evidence that these women are being exploited for these purposes, then there should be no permits allowed.

[Maria Mourani, Bloc, Ahuntsic, QC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Thank you.

Mrs. Smith.

[Joy Smith, Conservative, Kildonan—St. Paul, MB]

Thank you, and I want to thank every presenter today, because your presentations were very insightful. We've been trying and fighting for two years to get this topic on status of women. We're so happy we're examining it now, and I have to tell you I'm a little biased, because my son is RCMP, and I was the former MLA who was the justice critic for the province of Manitoba, and I had a lot to do with the ICE unit, the integrated child exploitation unit in Manitoba. You've probably heard of that unit.

Having said that, the thing that really surprises me about the human trafficking issue--and I wish we could have one of you comment--is how little the public knows about this. In my view, governments have to make laws to support police officers. The thousand RCMP officers was a start; there need to be more. The 120 days was a start. Bill C-49 was a start.

You commented on the age of consent. Yesterday I made a 20-minute speech in the House of Commons begging members to raise the age of consent. We're at a place right now where I hope members will unanimously pass that bill, Bill C-22.

Would you comment about awareness, because I've worked extensively with NGOs and police and everybody else. I was supposed to be speaking in Sydney, Nova Scotia, but the whip wouldn't let me go because there are votes; it's Tuesday night. But we need to hear more and more about awareness. Police officers themselves are often not aware of trafficking victims. Border officials are often not aware of the characteristics they can look for in watching trafficking victims coming across the borders. I know the RCMP have a new video out right now, which is very good and very helpful. But can you comment, first, on the awareness issue, and second, more about your solutions, because as people in the field, across the board, you are the people we need to turn to in order to make sure this horrendous crime is stopped, and act quickly on it.

Perhaps you could comment on that. Start with Vancouver and then Toronto and then the border people.

[Sgt Matt Kelly]

If you think the Canadian public is unaware of the phenomenon of human trafficking, wait until the small police department on the Prairies or in Quebec gets the human trafficking victim who phones 911. Then all hell's going to break loose at about 2 a.m. They're going to have nowhere to put that victim. In our case, from our experience, we had a detective using his own credit card to house someone until I could get money from the department, and then it was hands off from everybody because it's big and it's expensive.

There is no handbook other than the one Yvon Dandurand is producing, and I believe he's coming out with a second edition. So training is essential, and I will tell you the members of my police department don't know anything about this phenomenon or about the law or about section 279, because no one has been charged yet. We're trying to bring forward our first charge, but we haven't been able to do it, because crown counsel won't cooperate with us.

So everybody is ignorant of the issue, which is one of the reasons we stressed--and my friends also stressed along with me--to have training. That includes training for police officers, first of all. The Canadian Police College should have a course on human trafficking, and we should all be going to it, and then crown counsel and CBSA and CIC people as well, so we can all work in concert with each other--the conferences and the seminars also, so that we can network with one another and know who to phone in what city. We're dealing on a file right now with York Regional Police, and we get great cooperation, but yes, the ignorance is widespread.