Status of Women Committee on March 23rd, 2021

[Nelly Shin, Conservative, Port Moody—Coquitlam, BC]

Minister, part of cultural shift is confession and owning up to things. Are you willing to admit that you could have done things more responsibly a few steps back? Shift isn't going to happen unless we really humble ourselves and admit. It's not about saving face. It's about being truthful. Bureaucracy and all this red tape in the system are not there to control us. They're there to help us bring about justice.

[The Chair, Conservative, Marilyn Gladu]

I'm sorry, that's your time.

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

Madam Chair, I just want to speak to that point. It's an important one.

First, about culture change, I agree absolutely. I don't want anybody to finish up a statement and think that I don't believe in culture change. This is something that is extremely important to me. I'm sorry, as ministers and as politicians, we are not almighty, nor should we ever be. No politician should ever wield the power to start an investigation, because they could also end one. I can give countless examples of why that is so wrong.

When I talk about process, this not about deflecting. This is about bringing about justice for somebody who comes forward. Would you want to be the person who comes forward and, by the time it goes through an actual court case, doesn't get that just outcome? That's what's at stake here: a just outcome for the individual—

[The Chair, Conservative, Marilyn Gladu]

I'm sorry, Minister. That's really all the time we have for that question. You can continue when Mr. Serré is asking questions.

Mr. Serré, you have five minutes.

[Marc Serré, Liberal, Nickel Belt, ON]

Mr. Minister, I'd like you to continue along the lines of what was just asked of you regarding the culture change: what you've done, what needs to be done and how to continue the work. No one has to question your integrity here. You've done a lot of work since 2015, but the processes that are in place pre-date you.

Can you elaborate on what was just asked of you, Minister?

Thank you.

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

Culture change is something we're all committed to. I believe that in the committee here, there are some wonderful recommendations that can be provided, but also a need to look at changes that need to be made.

We need to make sure we just don't look at a report, look at a recommendation, sign off, and think it's done. For example, I can list off a whole bunch of things, but ultimately I'm always looking at what results we are creating on the ground.

When somebody is joining, are they in basic training and having a safe environment? If something comes up, whether it's a religious conversation, a gender issue, LGBTQ rights, or anything, we should immediately address it, because the Employment Equity Act states that we must.

Do we have the right action groups? Do they have the right governance structure? This is what the independent panel on systemic racism, gender bias and LGBTQ rights is currently doing: looking at where those issues are, digging deep inside the Canadian Armed Forces and looking at what changes are needed.

We need to create a much greater pipeline, and we've started that. I talked about the numbers, and right now, those aren't the metrics we want to judge ourselves by, but you know what? That's progress. It's not success. Going from six to 14 general officers is important, but the pipeline—when you look below that and when you create a greater pipeline—can never be stopped.

Why was it, with regard to the representation of women, that the percentages were obviously nothing to be proud of? If it was 15% women in the past, why didn't we have 15% women before? One of my goals was to immediately start making those changes, so when somebody had a complaint, they could come forward, regardless of retribution.

When I sign off on any general officers, I don't look at what their ability to command is; I trust they can do that. The question I ask is, “Are these persons leaders who can bring in cultural change?” If they are not, we don't want them being promoted, but if they are, we want to give them proper resources to do so.

We also need to make sure we have senior women at the table, so that we have proper representation. This is not the be-all and end-all, but it does make sure that we have the right people to put the right structures in place. We need to look at how the independent investigations are conducted. We need to take a look at whether we have the right resources in place, so that people are supported.

The one question I have for the judge advocate general is, if somebody has done something in the past, would it be acceptable for them to join the Canadian Armed Forces? If somebody does something inside the Canadian Armed Forces, why can't we get them out sooner? Those also have to go through proper legal checks and balances, because ultimately I can't make a decision on that. That's the law.

We have to follow the law, and if changes need to be made, we go through a parliamentary process to get those laws changed, so that we can create the proper changes. Ultimately, all of us—including this committee, and I look forward to your recommendations—need to be able to do the ripple effect of any recommendation to see how it can actually have that impact.

Too often in the past, what we have done and where we made some changes, they actually didn't achieve the outcomes we wanted. When I became minister, that was the last thing I wanted, giving out these speeches. I wanted to be focused on the metrics themselves and the changes we're making.

We have made progress, and we're proud of that progress, but obviously, this is not enough. I'm deeply hurt that we couldn't move forward, and I wish we had a magic wand to make all this go away, but we don't. At the same time, I didn't quit before, when I was serving to support the people, and I'm not going to quit now.

I'm committed to our Canadian Armed Forces and to ensuring we create an inclusive environment, because there are people in Canada right now who want to serve their country. They deserve to have a harassment-free workplace so they can reach their true potential. We're not going to stop until we achieve that, regardless of how long it takes.

[Marc Serré, Liberal, Nickel Belt, ON]

Thank you for your service.

[The Chair, Conservative, Marilyn Gladu]

Thank you so much, Minister. I want to thank you for your service, and thank the departmental members and other witnesses who have come.

You will be free to go unless you want to stay for a second panel.

On our second panel, we are pleased to have with us, already introduced, Lieutenant-General Wayne Eyre. We look forward to your testimony. As well, we have Lieutenant-General Frances Allen, who is Canada's military representative to the NATO military committee in Brussels, Belgium.

Each of you will have five minutes for your comments.

We'll begin with you, Lieutenant-General Wayne Eyre.

[LGen Wayne D. Eyre]

Madam Chair, I don't have prepared remarks per se, but I will give you a few comments.

First of all, thank you for the opportunity to address this committee.

I will say up front that the current circumstances have shaken us, and I believe the armed forces are at an inflection point—an inflection point that we have to seize as an opportunity to come out better and make it a better place to serve all Canadians.

We don't pretend to have all the answers. I certainly don't, and we have to be very open to ideas coming from the grassroots level, from outside experts. At the same time, we have to ensure that victims are supported in coming out, telling their stories, and bringing up allegations in whatever form they take.

We're in the process of rapidly developing a plan to go forward, but it has to be informed by the experts and by our grassroots, and that's what I hope to accomplish here. We are here to listen, and also to learn from you.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Marilyn Gladu]

Excellent. Thank you very much.

Lieutenant-General Allen, you have five minutes as well.

[Lieutenant-General Frances J. Allen, Military Representative of Canada, NATO Military Committee in Brussels, Belgium, Department of National Defence]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Like the CDS, I don't have any prepared comments, but I certainly am happy to be here today to take part in the conversation and to provide you with my perspective on any questions you may have.

Thank you, Madam Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, Marilyn Gladu]

Very good.

Then right away we will plunge into our questions. I believe we are starting with Ms. Sahota, for six minutes.

[Jag Sahota, Conservative, Calgary Skyview, AB]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you to all the witnesses for being here as well. We appreciate your time.

General Eyre, you have stated that Canada's military culture needs to, must and will change. Unfortunately, that has been the stated aim of many CDSs before you, yet there has been little progress. What significant differences in approach will you take to ensure a different outcome?

[LGen Wayne D. Eyre]

We have to learn why previous approaches did not work, learn from that and incorporate those lessons into our plan going forward.

As we go forward, I see us moving forward on two streams. The first stream is that any external review that looks at our organization we have to embrace and fully support with the realization that we don't have all the answers. Then we have to look at and embrace any recommendations that come out of that, including, if necessary, an independent reporting chain to give all our members the confidence—or to restore the confidence—that their allegations will be properly looked into.

Second, and of more urgency, are the internal actions we need to take. I have talked about listening and learning. Ensuring that victim support is in place is an immediate priority. We have to respect due process for the ongoing investigations.

With regard to Op Honour in particular, I believe—and I have heard from many—that perhaps this operation has culminated and that we need to harvest what has worked from there, learn from what hasn't, and go forward with a deliberate change plan, a deliberate plan that includes not only members of the Canadian Armed Forces but also our public servant colleagues as well.

We need to align our internal organizations, because we have disparate pockets that are focused on this problem, and perhaps better alignment is required amongst the different organizations.

We have to continue to implement the provisions of Bill C-65 and then Bill C-77 and, along with that, the restorative engagement that comes with the final settlement.

[Jag Sahota, Conservative, Calgary Skyview, AB]

Thank you, General. I apologize if I cut you short. I have limited time, and I want to ask a few questions.

Have you put in place any new measures since becoming the acting CDS?

[LGen Wayne D. Eyre]

Understand that I have only been in the job for several weeks. One of the things I immediately asked for was an aide-mémoire—a playbook, if you will—to help me deal with any further incidents of senior leader misconduct, so that we could rapidly deal with those. That was one.

[Jag Sahota, Conservative, Calgary Skyview, AB]

Could we get a copy of that?

[LGen Wayne D. Eyre]

It's still a draft at this point. Once it is finalized, we will be happy to share that.

As for the second one, last week I had all our general and flag officers on a Teams session. If there's one thing the pandemic has taught us, it is how to use technology, so it was all of our general and flag officers from across the world: deployed in operations, on exchange outside of the country, and here in Canada. I talked about the current circumstances, but I also laid out my expectations with regard to conduct, leadership, listening, etc.

Those are two of the immediate actions.

[Jag Sahota, Conservative, Calgary Skyview, AB]

Thank you.

Central to the military ethos is the trust and confidence of subordinates in their senior leaders, and that those leaders lead by example. There are media reports that indicate that there are other senior officers who may be guilty of the behaviour you're looking to eradicate. How will you ensure that they are investigated?

[LGen Wayne D. Eyre]

Every allegation deserves a full investigation, and we have to respect our values of due process and the rule of law. Every allegation that comes forward will be investigated and will follow due process.

[Jag Sahota, Conservative, Calgary Skyview, AB]

Is a consensual and public relationship between a senior officer and a subordinate an offence?

[LGen Wayne D. Eyre]

If it is in the chain of command, one reporting to the other, it creates what we call an “adverse relationship”. If it is not in the same chain of command, it is not an offence, but we have to make very sure that there is not a perceived conflict of interest.

One thing we need to get much better at understanding, though, in this case of rank differential, is power dynamics.

[Jag Sahota, Conservative, Calgary Skyview, AB]

General, a military organization has a clearly defined authority hierarchy. Military members wear their ranks visibly on their uniforms.

Would you agree that generally a subordinate member is expected to follow a request of a senior member, even if the senior member is not directly in that subordinate's reporting culture?

[LGen Wayne D. Eyre]

Madam Chair, yes.

Along with that power comes responsibility as well. One of the things we have to get much better at understanding is human power dynamics, especially in a fairly rigid military hierarchy. Understanding what constitutes the use of that power is something that we need to bake into all of our leadership training, so our leaders at all levels have a firm understanding of that.

[The Chair, Conservative, Marilyn Gladu]

Very good.

Now we're going to Ms. Sidhu, for six minutes.