Evidence of meeting #120 for Status of Women in the 44th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was control.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Conservative
Anna Roberts Conservative King—Vaughan, ON
I'm going to go back to a story that happened in my community, unfortunately, where two doctors—
Conservative
September 18th, 2024 / 6:10 p.m.
Conservative
Liberal
Marc Serré Liberal Nickel Belt, ON
Thank you, Madam Chair.
I'd also like to thank the four witnesses today. I think this has given us a lot of alarming information, no doubt, but it will also enrich our study.
I'll put my question to Ms. Rioux, to Ms. Jeshani, and then to the other witnesses, if we have time.
I'd like to understand one thing better. It's often said that the police's hands are tied. They say it's a problem associated with the justice system. The justice system is very vast. It's often said that the administration of justice falls under provincial jurisdiction, but at the federal level, we manage the Criminal Code as well as the family courts.
When we talk about reforming the bail system, that's also under provincial jurisdiction. So I'd like to understand one thing better. I'd like to address both Ms. Rioux and Ms. Jeshani. As for definitions, we've talked about definitions of parental alienation, reunification therapy and, obviously, coercive control.
How can we clearly define the role of the federal government in family courts?
Can you try to explain the federal and provincial roles in this area?
I put the question first to Ms. Rioux and Ms. Jeshani, and then to Ms. Polzin‑Holman and Ms. Neto.
Coalition of Families Victims of Post-Separation Abuse
I think we have some well-recognized experts in the country, starting with Simon Lapierre at the University of Ottawa. There are widely accepted definitions of these concepts, but I think the federal government could show some leadership. The RCMP is doing work in municipalities across the country. I don't see why the federal government can't develop training, policies and tools for police forces, and pass them on to the provinces and municipalities.
They say the police have their hands tied; they, in turn, often tell us that the level of seriousness isn't high enough to lay a criminal charge. So it's not criminal harassment for any number of reasons. That said, later on we see arrests in cases where the same behaviour has taken place, but against strangers. So it's also a question of culture.
Liberal
Marc Serré Liberal Nickel Belt, ON
Shelina, would you have anything to add? Maybe Wanda could add something afterward.
Wanda, do you have anything to add on the provincial and federal definitions, and how that links for the clinical...?
Clinical Director, Little Warriors
Just to add to what was said, I would say that we do absolutely need to have more clarity with regard to what is coercive control. Yes, we need to look at the definitions and whether or not to move forward with parental alienation, given what has been said today.
I think that under the current laws, there are some very significant issues. There is an important need to bring people together to address this, not only for women but also for children and families overall.
Director, Strategic Partnerships and Collaboration, Safe Centre of Peel
Thank you.
I want to add that it's about penetrating communities with understanding what coercive control is and what it looks like. We need opportunities to partner with different community groups so that we can talk about healthy relationships and talk about supports that are available for people to access. We're not putting responsibilities on community members to bring somebody forward, but for the community to build their capacity to understand what this issue is and what supports are there.
In one of the programs we're running right now, we have a police officer teamed up with our social workers. They go out to verbal domestic situations where there are no charges laid. Those are homes where we're seeing coercive control. This is an opportunity for us to go in with police officers who are trained and work alongside us, where we can influence one another, and we can get in and say, “Okay, there is help here. There is support.” Sometimes the first place people call—
Conservative
Director, Strategic Partnerships and Collaboration, Safe Centre of Peel
—is 911.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Shelby Kramp-Neuman
Perfect. Thank you.
I'm looking around the room for consensus. We have 10 minutes left. Are we comfortable with each of you having a round for two and a half minutes? We'll all get two and a half minutes. That way it will bring us right to the end.
Okay.
We'll start with Michelle for two and a half minutes.
Conservative
Michelle Ferreri Conservative Peterborough—Kawartha, ON
Thank you so much, Chair.
Thanks again to everyone here for this discussion on coercive control and bringing forward some recommendations that will hopefully save lives.
I want to talk with Wanda.
I'm sorry. I'm distracted by what Shelina just said, because what I've seen is.... My brain is going in two different directions. There's just so much information here.
You just talked about the police bringing a social worker with them. What I've seen in my ride-alongs with the police is that police have become social workers. They are not even able to do their real job of enforcing the law anymore, because it's just become this vicious cycle.
I was fortunate enough to visit the Toba Centre. Have any of you ever worked with the Toba Centre?
Wanda, do you have any intake from the Toba Centre?
Conservative
Michelle Ferreri Conservative Peterborough—Kawartha, ON
Okay, thank you. I was hoping you would say that.
It's a brilliant centre in what they do with the children. They are able to do court from inside this beautiful building, this beautiful space. They are doing those kinds of things.
I'll go back to what you said earlier in one of your answers about the generational trauma. With regard to education, and let's go upstream. I think we've talked a little bit about intervention and giving a definition to coercive control and what we need to change in the justice system and how to ensure that these criminals aren't out on bail, etc.
If we can go to the prevention end of things and the generational trauma, one of the big things I'm hearing from guards in the jail system is that they don't have the training or that the programming isn't in place to rehabilitate men when they do go into the system. They're often coming out worse than when they went in. They're not learning why they are violent. They're not learning why they are abusive. They're not getting better.
Julie is looking at me too. I'm open to anybody who wants to answer this.
I guess I'm talking about the prevention end of it. What would you add in the recommendations for this report for prevention and ensuring we understand healthy relationships and break generational trauma?
Conservative
Conservative
Clinical Director, Little Warriors
I can quickly answer something, and thank you for the question.
I want to say that in our “prevent it” program, we touch upon this. With regard to intergenerational trauma, it is for caregivers but also for children. What we're seeing is that when children come to us, sometimes the offending behaviour is more difficult to sort out between that and the trauma responses.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Shelby Kramp-Neuman
Thank you for that.
Lisa, you have two and a half minutes.
Liberal
Lisa Hepfner Liberal Hamilton Mountain, ON
Thank you, Chair.
I want to go back to Emmanuella's question about whether to bring in a coercive control law.
It seems as if everyone here around the table is in favour of a law against coercive control. However, I'd like to hear from all of you on whether you have concerns about it backfiring and being used as a weapon against victims of domestic violence.
Julie, do you want to start?
Coalition of Families Victims of Post-Separation Abuse
Sure.
Anything we bring in will be used as a weapon. That's our opinion, because DARVO—which is “deny, attack and reverse victim and offender”—is a common strategy of abusers. It doesn't matter what we bring in. They will try to use it.
Liberal
Lisa Hepfner Liberal Hamilton Mountain, ON
It's still worth bringing in a law, then. Thank you.
I'll go to the rest of you—Wanda, Shelina and Carla.