Evidence of meeting #17 for Transport, Infrastructure and Communities in the 39th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was consumers.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Fred Gaspar  Vice-President, Policy and Strategic Planning, Air Transport Association of Canada
Michael Pepper  President and Chief Executive Officer for Travel Industry Council of Ontario, Travellers' Protection Initiative
Christiane Théberge  Vice-President, Public Affairs and GM Eastern Canada for the Association of Canadian Travel agencies (ACTA) , Travellers' Protection Initiative
Michael Janigan  Executive Director and General Counsel for Public Interest Advocacy Centre, Travellers' Protection Initiative
Marie-Hélène Beaulieu  Option consommateurs

3:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Merv Tweed

Good afternoon, everyone. Welcome to meeting number 17 of the Standing Committee on Transport, Infrastructure and Communities.

Our order of reference from September 21 is Bill C-11, an act to amend the Canada Transportation Act and the Railway Safety Act and to make consequential amendments to other acts.

Today we're joined by Mr. Fred Gaspar of the Air Transport Association of Canada.

I think we have a quorum. I know we have another set of witnesses coming forward, so I will ask you to proceed.

3:30 p.m.

Fred Gaspar Vice-President, Policy and Strategic Planning, Air Transport Association of Canada

Thank you very much.

Mr. Chairman and honourable members, good afternoon. Thank you for inviting me here this afternoon to speak with you on the matter of Bill C-11.

Let me first take a few moments to familiarize you with our organization. The Air Transport Association of Canada was founded in Ottawa in 1934 as the national voice of Canada's fledgling aerospace and aviation industry. ATAC today is composed of a membership of over 200 companies of all sizes that collectively account for over 95% of commercial aviation revenues in Canada. We would like to address this committee, however, from the passenger's perspective, for it is the passenger's interests that ought to be at the heart of everything we do.

In Bill C-11 we see a bill that ostensibly deals with many issues related to passengers' concerns: air travel complaints, reviewing mergers and acquisitions, airfare advertising, and the use of airline data and passenger information. The sad reality, however, is that none of these measures actually address any of the real issues of concern to our passengers. You know yourselves what those are. You travel by air more than most Canadians. You know that what passengers want more than anything else from their air travel experience is safety, efficiency, and the right balance in the price and service mix. So that is the proper perspective from which to view these measures.

Indeed, it is a perspective that casts this bill in a less than flattering light, not for what it addresses, but for what it does not. It purports to introduce measures that are friendly to consumers, but does not actually help to lower costs, does not help to improve efficiency, and does not help to improve value.

For more than a few years now, ATAC and its members have been pleading with successive governments on behalf of our passengers to reduce the crippling effect of government ground rents due by passengers at airports. Established in the mid-1990s in conjunction with the development of airports, these rents have contributed approximately $300 million annually, and $2 billion since their inception, to general government coffers. The total contribution has already exceeded the net worth of those facilities at the time of their transfer, which was approximately $1.5 billion, a figure, by the way, which in no way accounted for the significant upgrades to those facilities, since most of them were practically falling apart.

Transferring the airports allowed the government to offload that cost to the local authorities, which recouped the investment costs from the users, namely, airlines and passengers. In short, it is a misnomer to label these payments as rent. They are actually a simple but brutal tax on flying, and they make the system about $300 million a year more expensive than it needs to be or ought to be. We respectfully submit that if Parliament is truly interested in pursuing the best interests of passengers, it should first and foremost occupy itself with this pressing matter.

Still, we are presented with a series of measures in this bill that require our scrutiny. It is probably fair to say that the most high profile of these measures is the proposal to fold the activities of the air travel complaints commissioner into those of the broader Canadian Transportation Agency mandate. From our perspective, this is a sensible move, insofar as the existence of that office represented little actual value for taxpayers' money. This has been an institution that stands out from other sectors in its purpose and role. There is no complaints commissioner for other modes of transportation, nor is there such an office for practically any other sector of the economy. The reason is self-evident. Clearly, there can be no better arbiter of the consumer interest than a healthy and highly competitive aviation sector.

Let's recall that when the office was created, it was in an era of much hand-wringing about the future state of competition in this industry. Air Canada had just completed its acquisition of Canadian Airlines in 2000, and many observers, including many parliamentarians at the time, expressed significant concerns about Air Canada's potential dominance in the market.

Despite this industry's assertions at the time that the marketplace would in fact provide the appropriate level of service and competition demanded by consumers, the office was established, among a series of other measures, in an attempt to create by legislation a regulatory framework that would protect consumer interests in the perceived absence of competition. But as we said it would, the marketplace did in fact return to a level of providing competitive service that responded to the demands of consumers. Anyone doubting that assertion need look no further than the fact that WestJet's market share today, for example, is at approximately 40%, higher than any level previously achieved by Canadian Airlines.

While there will always be some level of service disruption in our industry from time to time, we respectfully submit that a careful analysis of the role and value of the complaints commissioner since the position has existed clearly demonstrates that a healthy and competitive marketplace, and not another layer of government bureaucracy, can best respond to the need of consumers.

Similarly, the proposed authority granted to the minister to review mergers and acquisitions in all sectors of transportation is another example of a legislative tool introduced during the hysteria of 1999-2000 that has little, if any, practical value for passengers. Unlike the previous measure, however, this one actually does offer very real harm to the interests of passengers.

Nearly all stakeholders in commercial aviation, from consumer groups to infrastructure service providers to airlines, support lowering the barriers to investment in this sector.

We all recognize that ours is a very highly capital-intensive business, with large start-up and operational costs that are required to support, ultimately, a low-yield business climate. If a healthy, competitive aviation sector is the goal, why put in place regulations that cast doubt on Canada's openness to investment in this sector?

Moreover, this authority vested in the minister runs counter to the stated principles of the CTA, including those that say that “competition and market forces are, whenever possible, the prime agents in providing viable and effective transportation services”.

As with the previous measure discussed, since this was a tool introduced to deal with a perceived problem that never materialized, parliamentarians should rightly be asking themselves: what is this for and what does it do for consumers?

As to the matter of empowering the minister to regulate airfares, we encourage parliamentarians to remember where this came from and to ask themselves what value it represents to passengers. Indeed, some of our own members may tell you it has some value. Carriers who primarily distribute their tickets through provincially regulated tour operators and travel agencies, for instance, may see some value in a federal standard that would apply throughout Canada, while others who market their services directly to consumers question the need for this measure in the first place.

Certainly we are all united by the common interest of ensuring that consumers are fully and directly informed as to the makeup of their ticket cost. ATAC's concern with this proposal in regulating airfares advertising simply rests with the potential for abuse. As you well know, the final average cost of a discounted airline ticket in this country is comprised of anywhere between 25% and 40% in additional various government and government-created monopolies' taxes, fees, and charges. I don't think it would be fair to consumers in any way to hide information from them as to who is getting their travel dollar. They have a right to know.

While we take no specific view as to the propriety of this measure, we question the focus on disclosing the full price when the real focus should be on helping to reduce it. After all, shouldn't we be more concerned with making a $99 fare to Toronto more sustainable in the long run than wringing our hands about whether or not that $99 fare includes all the various government fees and charges?

In a similar vein, this proposal also purports to empower consumers by giving the CTA the authority to regulate the display of its terms and conditions for international services on the carriers' websites. We would certainly agree with the notion of ensuring that consumers are fully informed of the terms of carriage, which is why we clearly state the restrictions applicable on any ticket prior to the completion of a sale. We would caution the committee, however, to seek clarification on the meaning of this measure.

As some members may know, the full tariff is a legal contract consisting of thousands of lines of detailed text, spelling out every travel eventuality and arrangement known. The full text of a tariff rule can run over a hundred pages. We respectfully submit that it is in keeping with the spirit of the legislation to clarify this clause in order to provide consumers with practical and clear information as to the terms of carriage, rather than a requirement to publish the full text of the tariff itself.

As to the matter of sharing aviation data between government agencies, our industry takes no specific view as to the merits of these provisions. This is a broader social question, which is not limited to the commercial interests of airline service providers. From our members' perspective, our limited concern rests with the integrity of that data, which rightfully belongs to our passengers. We urge government to proceed cautiously when sharing data information and to do so only to the extent necessary, and to ensure the integrity of our databases by limiting any data-fishing exercises.

Finally--and to be fair--this legislation proposes a few housekeeping measures, which the industry can support. It contains clauses to require that persons acquiring an air service from another licensee must themselves hold an unsuspended licence. It exempts operators of seasonal service from the obligations of providing notice when suspending a service, for obvious reasons. And several other sections are also amended to provide the CTA with greater flexibility in making its determinations on a number of regulatory matters. The industry, by and large, supports these measures in principle.

So while this legislation is not entirely without merit, I return to my opening statement about assessing the bill from the passengers' perspective. If we can agree, more than anything, that passengers want safety, efficiency, and value in their travel experience, we have to ask ourselves what, if anything, this bill accomplishes from that perspective. Sadly, the answer is very little.

Ultimately, motherhood statements about airfare advertising rules, air travel complaints, and reviewing mergers and acquisitions do nothing to lower the costs at airports or improve the travel experience for passengers.

As some parliamentarians may recall, this bill is the third incarnation of this legislation. For some strange reason, Transport Canada keeps focusing on these measures that offer words in place of action to actually address the cost structure of this industry and the interests of passengers.

With that, I can only conclude by saying that the aviation industry in Canada is disappointed in this legislation but looks forward to discussing issues of meaningful reform, including those contained in the Canada Airports Act. Also, we hope to finally see some meaningful airport rent reductions for our industry and passengers.

Thank you. I look forward to your questions.

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Merv Tweed

Thank you, Mr. Gaspar.

Mr. McGuinty.

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

David McGuinty Liberal Ottawa South, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. Gaspar, it's good to see you. Thanks for coming in and thanks for your concise and on-the-mark presentation. It's always helpful for me and my colleagues, I'm sure, to hear the industry address the most salient parts of a bill that affects their businesses and their concerns.

I want to put to you two questions I put to the Canadian Transportation Agency yesterday. They deal with Bill C-11. In my view, I didn't get a satisfactory answer to either question. I confirmed yesterday with the Transportation Agency that the minister would be empowered under this bill to instruct the CTA to determine airline airfare clarity regulations--clarity regulations I think is the specific wording in the bill--and when they would be deemed to be necessary. I asked the CTA what might constitute necessary. Would it be a certain amount of evidence, a trend, a particular abuse, an incident of some kind? They were not able to answer. So I put that to you, from an airline perspective.

. I know you spoke moments ago about $99 fares and let's work on the sustainability of $99 fares rather than the sustainability and clarity of advertising. For a lot of Canadians, I think they are confused. For a consumer who travels and for my colleagues and their families who travel, we can sometimes be very misled by advertising. Can I put that question to you, first of all, on clarity regulations? In your mind, when might they be deemed to be necessary?

3:40 p.m.

Vice-President, Policy and Strategic Planning, Air Transport Association of Canada

Fred Gaspar

I think that's a very fair question. From our perspective, we think it would be an entirely reasonable public policy pursuit when and if parliamentarians were faced with an industry that was attempting to hide its profitability. If our industry were attempting to market a fare very cheaply because they didn't want to make it obvious as to how much money they were making off a fare, then that might be a very legitimate pursuit. But while it may certainly be true that some passengers are confused by their air ticket, in fact that confusion is a result of the myriad layers of fees and charges that apply from different contributors.

I remember having this discussion with a family member of mine who expressed their frustration. He said, “When I see a $99 fare, I expect that's what I'm going to pay.” I told him that the reason an airline advertises $99 is because that's how much money they're actually putting in their pocket. The rest of it's going to the airport, the navigation system, or the government through the GST, or taxes through the security charge. So from our perspective it's a matter of letting the consumer know who's getting your dollar for what service. It improves accountability.

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

David McGuinty Liberal Ottawa South, ON

Okay.

The second question I want to put to you is around the air travel complaints commissioner in the office. I put the same question in three or four different ways yesterday to the acting president of the CTA. I was trying to get a sense of whether there was a difference in having an independent commissioner with an independent office. We know that before, it was a temporary measure to oversee the particular trials and tribulations of AC's acquisition of Canadian Airlines, but now this notion of burying the air travel complaints commissioner's office to a certain extent and operationalizing it, mainstreaming it in the CTA, concerns me.

When Mr. Hood left his position and since then a number of CTA officials have been on record as saying that one of the wonderful roles the commissioner's office played was to track trends, as opposed to isolated events--to track trends. So if there are 16, 18, or 22 instances of, say, food poisoning--you know this better than I do, as the industry representative--do you think that by placing the commissioner's office and the process inside the CTA we're going to lose some of the arm's-length aspect, the third party type of relationship that a commissioner can have? Don't you think the airline industry would say it's great, let's have third party scrutiny and let's have a race to the top?

3:45 p.m.

Vice-President, Policy and Strategic Planning, Air Transport Association of Canada

Fred Gaspar

I don't think we'd lose it, because it's not a unique legislative tool. The airline travel complaints commissioner had a particular mandate, but in terms of authority granted to it, it's not an authority that wasn't available elsewhere. For instance, Transport Canada has quite a significant aviation data operations department. They might not focus on particular trends, particular data elements that you may be referring to, but there's no reason they can't. There's no reason that you couldn't call the minister before this committee and say you'd like the department to start following X, Y, and Z. Similarly, even within the context of the CTA, there is nothing in terms of this move that prevents the CTA from continuing to track that.

To your point about whether there is any marginal value in having an independent officer report back and have that create a race for the top, we don't in fact see that. The reason is that there really is no evidence to that effect. History has shown throughout this industry, nationally and in North America and indeed worldwide, that the best tool for modernizing the delivery of services and for improving the efficiency and effectiveness of this sector is a healthy and competitive sector, because that's when different investors come in and differentiate services. Really, we think that's where Canadians' minds are most focused. They want to see a better climate for investment and services.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

David McGuinty Liberal Ottawa South, ON

Are you suggesting, then, that the moral suasion and the public embarrassment function and the powers and drivers of a commissioner--an environment commissioner, a bilingualism commissioner--are going to be available to the CTA the way they were to Mr. Hood?

3:45 p.m.

Vice-President, Policy and Strategic Planning, Air Transport Association of Canada

Fred Gaspar

Certainly I can't comment on the other commissioners, but in terms of this commissioner, absolutely, because the shift simply says that the function is going to be subsumed within the CTA. Nothing prevents the CTA chairman or new president, when they come in, from deciding that this is going to be an element that they are going to pay special attention to.

Moreover, to your point about public embarrassment, I'd encourage you as well to look at it from the other perspective, which is that when you create a specialized, independent, offset office, oftentimes they get disproportionate attention paid to them, which may or may not be warranted. We had instances in the past, not most recently, where raw numbers were thrown out about there having been x number of diverted bags last year. Politicians know this better than anybody, how a big screaming headline can often be misleading, because in fact, when you get down to that number, you realize that what they were talking about is less than one percent of all bags carried.

Does that mean that any misdirected bag is acceptable? No; we always work to improve. But I think when you look at things contextually, this industry has nothing to be ashamed of and everything to be very proud about in terms of how it has improved its customer service, in the last five to ten years especially.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Merv Tweed

Thank you.

Monsieur Carrier.

3:45 p.m.

Bloc

Robert Carrier Bloc Alfred-Pellan, QC

Hello, Mr. Gaspar.

3:45 p.m.

Vice-President, Policy and Strategic Planning, Air Transport Association of Canada

3:45 p.m.

Bloc

Robert Carrier Bloc Alfred-Pellan, QC

I missed part of your presentation. I usually understand English, but in this case you were speaking too fast.

3:45 p.m.

Vice-President, Policy and Strategic Planning, Air Transport Association of Canada

Fred Gaspar

I feel the same way about French.

3:45 p.m.

Bloc

Robert Carrier Bloc Alfred-Pellan, QC

From what I gather, you have a number of reservations about this bill.

Until now, the complaints commissioner governed, in a way, transportation. Based on your experience, was this an effective way to address issues of consumer dissatisfaction?

3:45 p.m.

Vice-President, Policy and Strategic Planning, Air Transport Association of Canada

Fred Gaspar

I guess I approach that question from a perspective of value for money. Is there any value whatsoever in having someone else, a fresh set of eyes, take a look at a complaint or an issue? Possibly, but if you look at it in a value for money perspective, you have to ask, “Was it really worth it?” While there were certainly very good, professional, competent people who worked in that office, ultimately what happened was that they received a complaint, they ensured that the passenger had exhausted all possible avenues of appeal with the carrier, they took a fresh set of eyes and looked at the issue, and then they made recommendation to the carrier and the passenger.

I guess the question you have to ask yourselves is, at the end of the day, what has been gained by that? Isn't the better gain to ensure that we have a healthy climate, a healthy, financially sustainable industry that encourages investment? That actually addresses consumer need for choice.

3:50 p.m.

Bloc

Robert Carrier Bloc Alfred-Pellan, QC

You are aware of the fact that due to back-to-back elections, this bill is being introduced in the House for the third time. The objective here is to meet the needs of the public, in terms of obtaining additional detail on transportation fees.

Given the fact that this is a request from the public which we must address and given the bill at hand, could you indicate to us, although you are not entirely in favour of this bill, which amendments could be made to make it more acceptable to you?

3:50 p.m.

Vice-President, Policy and Strategic Planning, Air Transport Association of Canada

Fred Gaspar

To be fair, we haven't gone through the process of trying to itemize specific changes, primarily because we do see these as broad issues.

To your point, for instance, that Canadians are telling you that they want this function, I really don't see that. Depending on how you ask any survey question, you might certainly get an answer that yes, I might like a complaints commissioner; but if you tell me how much it's going to cost and how much actual change they're going to effect, I might think twice about that. That's why I encourage you to look at the details of how this office worked.

As to your question whether there is anything of value in the legislation, as I said at the end, there are some matters of value in some of the changes to the powers of the CTA, with respect to the transferring of licence between licensees, that we see as being a worthwhile pursuit. But by and large, to your point in saying consumers want this, the question we ask is what is the pressing need in this particular sector? If there's a broad societal view that there needs to be oversight of consumer complaints, why isn't it approached through all industries? What is the particular need in this sector? Do the data bear it out? Is the percentage of complaints relative to the percentage of customers carried, whether you measure it through a persons or a dollar value perspective, higher than other sectors? I don't know that that research has even been done, so why are we doing this?

Let's recall that we did this initially in 1999-2000 because there was a lot of hysteria about what the fallout from the Canadian Airlines and Air Canada merger was going to be. In fact, that worst case scenario fallout didn't happen. Our industry today is healthier and better than it was then and offers more choice for consumers.

3:50 p.m.

Bloc

Robert Carrier Bloc Alfred-Pellan, QC

There has been some mention of the authority vested in the agency regarding the regulation of airfare advertising. Under current legislation, the agency may proceed through regulations and these regulations would be established by the Department of Transport.

Are you satisfied with this process or would you prefer to have the agency making its own determinations as to advertising?

3:50 p.m.

Vice-President, Policy and Strategic Planning, Air Transport Association of Canada

Fred Gaspar

We really haven't gone into the reasons for deciding which of the two of them is better positioned to do it. We do take the broad view that if that measure is to pass, you ought to establish some pretty clear benchmarks as to what are going to be the thresholds or the triggers for these kinds of rules. I think that's a pretty fair and standard request, but as I mentioned at the outset, there's no unanimity within our organization on this issue of the need for standardized advertising rules. Depending on how you distribute your tickets, it may or may not be advantageous to you.

However, I do again offer the broad view that in anything this committee proposes to do in its particular interest in transport issues, it should keep in mind why there is a need to do it in this particular sector, in this particular industry. In terms of advertising fares from a clarity perspective—and not to pick on another sector, which I know is provincially regulated—I bought my car last year, and after the advertised fare I had to pay $1,100 for a pre-delivery inspection. There's no need to regulate the advertising of those costs, but there's somehow a need to regulate the advertising of these costs. Why?

Our advertising standards meet the best standards that are out there. The only costs we don't include in our base ticket prices are those that we can't control: airports, navigation systems, CATSA, and other government fees and taxes.

3:55 p.m.

Bloc

Robert Carrier Bloc Alfred-Pellan, QC

Thank you.

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Merv Tweed

Mr. Julian.

3:55 p.m.

NDP

Peter Julian NDP Burnaby—New Westminster, BC

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Thank you for coming and for your presentation. I think we've all heard your comment around ground rents, but I see them as an issue separate from the issue of Bill C-11 itself. But those comments were valuable, and I think that issues is something we, as a transport committee, could certainly look into in the coming weeks.

I'd like to come back to Bill C-11, because, like my colleagues, I have some concerns about your comments both around the issue of the clarity of air fares and the air travel complaints commissioner. You seem to indicate that, within your association, there are two points of view on the regulation of advertising around air fares. Would that be fair to say? Some of the carriers, some of your members, support that idea.

3:55 p.m.

Vice-President, Policy and Strategic Planning, Air Transport Association of Canada

Fred Gaspar

Yes, except I don't want to leave the impression of it being a 50-50 debate. There are different views.

3:55 p.m.

NDP

Peter Julian NDP Burnaby—New Westminster, BC

So some of the carriers believe this would be a healthy move forward for the consumer, but other carriers would disagree with that.