Evidence of meeting #69 for Transport, Infrastructure and Communities in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was union.
A video is available from Parliament.
4:50 p.m.
Conservative
Lawrence Toet Conservative Elmwood—Transcona, MB
To look at that from another angle, what about the creation of consortiums where you would have the ability to come together with a group of companies in order to do that? Would that be something you'd also support?
4:50 p.m.
President, Merit Canada
It's something that our companies are doing. At least that's happening in the private sector. It's happening in the public sector as well.
One of the conditions, though, that we think should be there is that if the federal government puts in money, they have to ensure that all through the value chain it's an open and transparent process. Simply because you've signed off as a consortium doesn't mean you can bind or restrict people from doing the electrical work, like that of Mr. Pamic, or some of the other work that our members do.
4:50 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Larry Miller
Thank you very much.
We'll now move to Mr. Aubin for five minutes.
4:50 p.m.
NDP
Robert Aubin NDP Trois-Rivières, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair. I will be sharing my time with Mr. Cash.
I have two questions that may be related. I will let you tell me if they are and I'll take an overall answer.
I've heard you say a few times, since the beginning of our meeting, that not having open tendering rules could potentially increase the cost of construction between 12% and 18%.
My question is for Mr. Oakey.
What makes an organization like Merit Canada different from a union if it offers its membership the same things? For example, you offer to administer benefit plans, insurance plans and training programs, all of which the unions do as well. How does your cost allow us to potentially save 12% to 18%?
4:50 p.m.
President, Merit Canada
It's also that the force of the competition tends to lower prices. If you have 10 or 12 bidders versus 1 or 2, prices go down. You see that in all industries.
Thank you for that plug for the Merit benefit plan. We run the largest multi-employer benefit plan in all of construction. We pay health and dental benefits, life insurance, retirement plan.
When Mr. Cash was talking about employers or companies treating their employees poorly, I'm not sure these people work in construction and, if they do, they should join a Merit member because they'll get all those benefits exactly like they would in a union.
I also think that given we have someone who actually works in the construction industry, Mr. Pamic, he should probably comment on the competitive nature of staffing and the benefits that he provides.
4:55 p.m.
Representative, Power-Tek Electrical Services Inc., Merit Canada
One thing you find which I think makes it more competitive in my industry, being open shop, is that there are no delineations, if you will.
To give you a very easy example, I was an IBEW member for 15 years. Then I became an open-shop contractor. On projects that my people work on, we cross lines. We have the ability to cut a piece of plywood. We don't have to go to a licensed carpenter on a construction site because we're an open-shop facility. I also then don't have to get a painter to paint that piece of plywood with fire-retardant paint. My people can actually do that, and then we can mount that plywood and mount our equipment on it.
The problem with a lot of closed tendering is that you have these actual lines that do not allow one union to cross into another union's work, and into another. So a lot of times you have people basically wasting a lot of their effort.
4:55 p.m.
NDP
Andrew Cash NDP Davenport, ON
Thank you.
The costs that are lower, what are those costs? In other words, do employees in a Merit shop make the same amount of money as employees in, say, Local 183 of LiUNA?
4:55 p.m.
President, Merit Canada
Our companies don't collude in wage prices, like others.
4:55 p.m.
President, Merit Canada
A lot of our members pay well above the union rate. A lot of the cost associated with closed shops actually has nothing to do with wage rates. It's increased cost that had to do with paying into an endowment fund, a sports and entertainment fund, a hunting fund, a social justice fund, a political action fund—none of which goes to the worker. It's simply a tax on the employer and the project that gets funded through the local union.
If our members paid less, or if our members treated their workers poorly, there's an alternative. They would likely go and work in a union shop. But they choose not to. In the industry, 70% of the workers, despite all legal opportunities available to them, choose to be union free. The numbers speak for themselves.
4:55 p.m.
President, Linden Concrete Forming
My carpenters, my workers, are unionized carpenters. Theirs are not unionized. Every one of my men, it costs him almost $2 an hour to have the right to work. Their worker is paying for that. The advantage with the Merit contractor is that the worker doesn't pay any dues at all.
My workers just had an increase. Their full rate right now will be $47 an hour, but at the end of the line the worker only has about $25 in his pocket. You were mentioning about those pension plans, about how well the people in your districts are living because of these pension plans. But you were actually saying that 70% of Canadian non-unions are making sure that those union workers are having a good time during their old age, and I think this is totally unfair to them. I'm only saying that there was a decision at the Supreme Court—try to respect it.
4:55 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Larry Miller
Thank you very much.
We'll now move to Mr. Poilievre, for five minutes.
4:55 p.m.
Conservative
Pierre Poilievre Conservative Nepean—Carleton, ON
I listened to what Mr. Aubin said. Your workers enjoy the same rights, the same benefits and the same working conditions as unionized workers. And that makes me wonder why your employees aren't allowed to be involved in project bids.
4:55 p.m.
President, Merit Canada
No, I understand your point. I mean it would be one thing if you could make the case that our employees are paid a lot less, below minimum wage, are somewhat unsafe, or whatever—none of which can be claimed. I can only speak for companies that are Merit members. As I said, they have full health and dental benefits, all the same benefits that closed shops have. So there's no distinction.
It's a false analogy, and I often get this when I'm at committee on other topics. It's a way to talk down about our members and their employees and how we treat them. It's just not borne out by the facts.
5 p.m.
Conservative
Pierre Poilievre Conservative Nepean—Carleton, ON
Do you recognize that there may be occasions where a unionized firm might beat one of your firms in a competition?
5 p.m.
Conservative
Pierre Poilievre Conservative Nepean—Carleton, ON
So there are good unionized contractors out there in your view.
5 p.m.
Conservative
Pierre Poilievre Conservative Nepean—Carleton, ON
So you're not here to suggest that they should not be part of a competition.
5 p.m.
Conservative
Pierre Poilievre Conservative Nepean—Carleton, ON
You believe they should be allowed to compete, that workers should have the right to work for them, and that they should have the chance to win and prosper.
5 p.m.
Conservative
Pierre Poilievre Conservative Nepean—Carleton, ON
You just want the very same thing for your members.