Transport Committee on May 13th, 2021

[Ali Ehsassi, Liberal, Willowdale, ON]

I'll now turn to Minister Alghabra.

Again, thank you, Minister Alghabra. You have been intimately involved with this issue since day one and have done tremendous work.

Given all that we have seen in the past 16 months, Minister Alghabra, how would you characterize the Iranian government's conduct?

[Omar Alghabra, Liberal, Mississauga Centre, ON]

Let me pause for a second to thank Mr. Ehsassi for his advocacy on behalf of the families of PS752. I have seen him first-hand, from day one, interact closely with families and speak on their behalf in caucus, in Parliament and, as you can see here today, at committee.

Let me build on what Minister Garneau just said. Unfortunately, and frustratingly, Iran continues to avoid providing answers and accountability for what happened. As Minister Garneau said, there are many remaining unanswered questions. Our resolve remains strong to get to the bottom of what happened and to hold those who shot down the plane accountable.

We will exhaust all international avenues, work with international partners and continue to pressure Iran on getting answers for what happened.

[The Chair, Liberal, Vance Badawey]

Thank you, Minister Alghabra and Mr. Ehsassi.

We'll now move to the Bloc.

Mr. Barsalou-Duval, you have the floor for six minutes.

[Xavier Barsalou-Duval, Bloc, Pierre-Boucher—Les Patriotes—Verchères, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

News of the crash of flight PS752 caused by Iran came as a shock to most people. The victims and their families still feel the consequences of that event today. Canadians and Quebecers alike wonder how anyone could have fired on an airliner.

Unfortunately, the families still do not have answers concerning this incident. Mr. Garneau, do you think your government has done enough to get answers for those families?

[Marc Garneau, Liberal, Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Westmount, QC]

Thank you for your question.

I'm in constant contact with the families. We meet regularly to talk and so I can answer their questions and provide a progress report that we prepare. We also send them a letter every month and communicate with them on a weekly basis. Minister Alghabra and I are in close contact with the families.

We tell them we're still looking for certain answers because the preliminary and final reports didn't answer all questions in an open and transparent manner, as was supposed to be the case. We assure them that we'll keep digging for those answers that are so important to them.

In the meantime, we're providing them with several services, which I mentioned in my opening remarks, to support them during this extremely difficult time.

[Xavier Barsalou-Duval, Bloc, Pierre-Boucher—Les Patriotes—Verchères, QC]

Thank you for your answer.

Canada has obtained "expert" status in the investigation to determine what happened. Unfortunately, we've been unable to find out much about that.

Given the large number of Canadian victims, why have we only received "expert" status?

It may be for technical reasons, but perhaps politics is also involved. Could you explain that to us? I think many people expected that we would have a more prominent role.

[Marc Garneau, Liberal, Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Westmount, QC]

There are technical reasons. The rules are very clear in the event of a tragedy: the first country under suspicion is the one where the incident occurred. The second is the country represented by the airline, and the third is the one or ones where the aircraft was built.

The main countries under suspicion in this case are Iran, Ukraine, the United States and France. France builds this type of engine.

As we were on site as expert observers, we were able to determine from the black boxes what had happened in the aircraft but unable to obtain complete answers.

However, the most important thing is to find out what happened on the ground. Why were missiles fired on that aircraft? Who gave the orders? Why wasn't the airspace open? The answers to those questions won't come from the black boxes, and they're the ones we're looking for right now.

[Xavier Barsalou-Duval, Bloc, Pierre-Boucher—Les Patriotes—Verchères, QC]

Thank you very much for your answer, Mr. Garneau.

Since you were the Minister of Transport at the time and are now Minister of Foreign Affairs, you've been involved in this file from day one. So you have a fairly complete overview, or at least a much clearer picture than I or any ordinary person could have.

I nevertheless noticed that you share my frustration at being unable to get answers for the victims. I imagine the same is true of the new Minister of Transport, Mr. Alghabra. However, unlike me and any ordinary person, you're in a position to take steps.

I'd like to know what else you're going to do to get those answers.

[Marc Garneau, Liberal, Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Westmount, QC]

As you know, my predecessor, Mr. Champagne, headed up the international coordination and response group for the victims of flight PS752, which includes representatives from the five countries that had citizens aboard that aircraft. In addition to Iran, they are Ukraine, Sweden, the United Kingdom, Afghanistan and Canada.

We formed a group and adopted a united position on the demands we'll be making in compensation negotiations with Iran. Those demands obviously include clarity and monetary compensation, but also other items, including an official apology from Iran.

The five countries have worked together over the past year to present a common front when we address Iran, as we are about to do.

[Xavier Barsalou-Duval, Bloc, Pierre-Boucher—Les Patriotes—Verchères, QC]

Thank you.

I understand you felt it was important that there be adequate compensation, but even though the victims will welcome compensation, I imagine what they want first and foremost are answers from Iran. We've learned that 10 Iranians have been charged, but we don't know who they are or exactly why they've been charged.

What can you do to get the information you want? Those 10 Iranians could easily be 10 individuals who were arrested on a street corner. I'm not sure they'll ultimately give us the answers we're looking for. What powers do you have to ensure you can get the information you want and determine the identity of those people and what they did?

[Marc Garneau, Liberal, Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Westmount, QC]

You're right: answers are the important thing for the families and for us. Monetary compensation is all well and good, but we first want answers because we really want to understand what happened.

During the negotiations, we will collaborate with the five previously named countries, and we won't allow Iran merely to declare that 10 individuals have been charged. Incidentally, I don't exactly know what they've been charged with.

We know perfectly well that the military members involved in this affair, who belong to the Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps, have all been completely cleared because that information was in the final report. No explanation of the chain of command was offered that might give us an idea of who made the decisions, who was ultimately responsible or what soldiers fired the missiles. We know that individuals at the bottom of the chain of command fired the missiles and will be charged and convicted. We don't find that satisfactory, and we've clearly stated that we want to know who in the chain of command was responsible. That goes right up to the highest level.

[The Chair, Liberal, Vance Badawey]

Thank you, Minister Garneau. Thank you, Mr. Barsalou-Duval.

We're now going to move on to the NDP.

Mr. Bachrach, you have the floor for six minutes.

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to both of the ministers for being with us today.

Let me start by saying that my thoughts today are with the families of the victims of this terrible tragedy. I hope that our meetings at this committee can lead, in a constructive way, to getting answers to the questions they have, and can make some positive contribution to ensuring that something like this never happens again.

Some of my questions have been answered already, but perhaps I'll start with Minister Garneau.

Minister, on March 17 you jointly released a statement expressing concern with the final report of the Iranian investigation, and you promised that the Government of Canada will soon disclose the results of its own investigation. I understand from your comments today that the final report is expected in the coming weeks. Is there anything else you can share around the timeline and when we can expect to see the outcome of that investigation?

[Marc Garneau, Liberal, Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Westmount, QC]

You're right. This would be known as the forensic report, and it will come out in the coming weeks. It is the result of an analysis by a group of experts of all the facts that were publicly available, with access to some additional intelligence. That report will speak for itself when it comes out in a few weeks.

We felt it was necessary, particularly Special Advisor Goodale, as he was preparing his report and investigating what had happened, to focus as much expertise as possible to look at all of the known facts that followed the tragic downing so that we could have our own internal analysis. We felt, after the preliminary report came out, that the Iranians were not answering all the questions that needed to be answered.

We'll wait for that forensic report, which should be out in the coming weeks.

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Minister, based on what you know about that analysis, how confident are you that the outcome will provide answers to the questions you've highlighted today?

[Marc Garneau, Liberal, Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Westmount, QC]

You'll understand that I'm not at liberty to pre-empt that report. We'll just have to wait until it comes out.

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Okay.

Perhaps I'll turn to Minister Alghabra with some questions about annex 13. On March 18, the TSB called for a review of the provisions in annex 13 of the ICAO convention, to improve transparency in the future when a state is investigating itself. Do you support this call for transparency?

[Omar Alghabra, Liberal, Mississauga Centre, ON]

I thank Mr. Bachrach for the question.

It is part of our initiative, in fact. Annex 13 has worked well in the past, but this tragic incident has exposed that there are certain vulnerabilities where sometimes we could see a question of credibility. Canada has been now leading an effort to find a way to strengthen annex 13 so it can fill in the gap for these perceptions of conflict or real conflict.

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Minister, does that include amending annex 13 to give other states a greater level of involvement when it comes to investigations of air accidents?

[Omar Alghabra, Liberal, Mississauga Centre, ON]

Yes, it involves strengthening annex 13. I don't want to prejudge the outcome to be exact on how annex 13 will be prescribed enhancement, but for sure we need to strengthen annex 13, because we just found out there is weakness in how it is structured right now.

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Minister, has ICAO expressed an interest in strengthening annex 13?

[Omar Alghabra, Liberal, Mississauga Centre, ON]

ICAO has been supportive of our efforts to benefit from the lessons learned from this tragedy. ICAO has been supportive of the safer skies initiative. ICAO is engaging in discussions on strengthening annex 13.

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Perhaps to both ministers or either, how satisfied were you with the access that the TSB was granted to the crash site and the black box, and with its general role in the investigation of this incident?

[Omar Alghabra, Liberal, Mississauga Centre, ON]

Maybe I'll take that, Mr. Chair, and then see if Minister Garneau wants to respond as well.

[The Chair, Liberal, Vance Badawey]

Go ahead, Minister.