Transport Committee on Jan. 12th, 2023

[Melissa Lantsman, Conservative, Thornhill, ON]

I'm talking specifically about enhanced enforcement of our passenger rights regulations. I'm talking specifically about notices of violation when it comes to the conduct of these operators, and then specifically about monetary policies. I think Canadians would agree that whatever is happening in passenger rights protections—which is why we are all here—is not enough.

[France Pégeot]

This falls under the responsibility of the agency and therefore under mine. During the holiday, our six—and soon seven—enforcement officers have been on the ground, have been monitoring the situation, have been gathering information and have launched investigations. If we notice that there were some contraventions to the legislation and the regulations, we will take action.

[Melissa Lantsman, Conservative, Thornhill, ON]

I have just one more question for the CTA. Given this talk of impartiality, even though the board of the CTA is appointed by the government, how do you communicate with the Department of Transport? Is it by encrypted email?

[France Pégeot]

No, actually.

We have two roles. One is as an administrative tribunal. With respect to the decisions that are made by the tribunal, there is a very thick wall, I would say. There is absolutely no discussion there at all; nor is there with respect to enforcement. That is our responsibility. We're responsible for that.

Of course, when we develop a regulation, when we face a situation that affects our responsibilities, I think it's our duty, actually, to coordinate with colleagues from other organizations, or to speak to them and understand what they're doing. We would be openly meeting with the Department of Transport. This doesn't affect our independence at all, which is why we developed an independent statement, which we have put on our website, that explains the differences in roles and how we behave in the different roles.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Schiefke]

Thank you very much, Ms. Lantsman and Madame Pégeot.

Unfortunately, I have to cut you off once again.

Next we have Ms. Koutrakis.

Ms. Koutrakis, the floor is yours. You have five minutes.

[Annie Koutrakis, Liberal, Vimy, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you to all our officials for being here this afternoon and for your very valuable testimony.

I also want to take the opportunity, because I'm sure you don't often hear this, from the bottom of my heart, to thank you and your teams very much for all the hard work you do. I know this isn't easy. A lot of very difficult questions are being addressed to you today. I have full confidence in your ability to see us through this difficult time. Thank you for doing what you do.

This question is for Transport Canada officials. I don't know who could take it. Earlier, when the minister was here, my colleague, Ms. Lantsman, suggested he use authorities he has under subsection 49(1) of the act to order the CTA to conduct an inquiry into what happened during the holidays. However, if he opted for this, while the agency would be required to conduct an inquiry and make public a summary of its findings—of course without any confidential information—such an inquiry would be analytical in nature and would not result in any corrective action. It would also consume agency resources that might otherwise be applied to addressing the backlog in complaints, which Ms. Pégeot spoke about.

This would not necessarily be the best use of its limited resources, would it, especially if we are already starting to get a good picture of what happened and why it happened?

[Craig Hutton, Associate Assistant Deputy Minister, Policy, Department of Transport]

With respect to conducting an investigation, you're quite right just in terms of looking at the details of what happened over the course of the holidays. That is something the agency is empowered to do in terms of complaints that are brought before it. It can look at those individual cases and make those determinations as those complaints come forward, with respect to what the individual circumstances were, and make rulings based on what it has before it. It has that power now. Many Canadians and passengers may choose to avail themselves of that opportunity, if they haven't already, in the coming days, if they're not seeking redress directly with air providers in the air sector system.

With respect to the use of resources, I'll leave it to the agency to talk a bit about how it organizes itself to manage the complaints that come to it.

You're quite right, in terms of any broad investigation, that the minister may ask or make a broad inquiry of the agency. That would deal not with any specific instance faced by a passenger but with the broad issues around the events over the holiday period. It wouldn't necessarily come to any particular recommendations on that.

That being said, I think the minister was quite clear that whether as a result of the study by this committee or other events he has hosted, conversations he's had, or interactions officials have had with transportation providers, we are looking very closely at improvements that can be made as a result of not only the disruptions we saw over the holiday period but also of course the congestion we saw over the course of last spring and summer. With respect to all these things, we are looking very closely for improvements that can be made, not only to the APPRs and the passenger rights regime but also, of course, more broadly in terms of how the sector responds and conducts its operations.

[Annie Koutrakis, Liberal, Vimy, QC]

Staying with Transport Canada, I want to pivot to a question about VIA.

Can you comment on the restoration of VIA service and what actions were taken?

[Dominic Rochon]

I'm going to jump in, if I may, to correct something that the minister may have said in the last session. I want to get it on the record. He mentioned that VIA doesn't own any of the tracks it uses. In fact, it owns less than 5%. I wanted to add that little correction. He rightly said, though, that there are challenges.

We have started to invest. We have started to provide resources. I don't know whether Nick wants to take that question from a rail safety perspective.

[Nicholas Robinson, Associate Assistant Deputy Minister, Safety and Security, Department of Transport]

Sure.

As the deputy just mentioned, the restoration of service was made more difficult because CN was responsible for repairing the track that was impacted by a derailment by CN. We focus on the train that was struck by a tree, but the reason service was delayed and cancelled on the 25th and 26th was that there was a derailment as well along that same corridor. It was in a very difficult part of that corridor. It was in a culvert, so it was very difficult for workers to get to. It took quite a while. Both tracks were impacted. It took two days—close to three days—to restore service.

What we did at Transport Canada, as part of the continuation of keeping abreast of and working to address the challenges over the storm period, was work with CN and VIA right from the beginning on the derailment that happened on the 24th, but also on the train that was stranded on the 23rd. We made sure there was a rescue operation. Another train came in to offload the passengers who were stranded on the tracks. Unfortunately, due to weather and track conditions, that took far too long. We understand that and we'll work with VIA on that.

We are also undertaking our own—

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Schiefke]

Thank you very much, Mr. Robinson. Unfortunately, I'm going to have to cut you off there.

Thank you very much, Ms. Koutrakis.

Ms. Vignola, you have the floor again, for two and a half minutes.

[Julie Vignola, Bloc, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Rochon, during the pandemic, the airlines received several hundred million dollars in aid of various kinds to maintain their expertise, including that of their employees, and to be able to meet their recurring costs.

Some citizens have contacted me by electronic means to say that they feel they have been double-slapped. After agreeing without protest to see these companies helped with their taxes, since this help was justified to save these domestic companies, they have seen them refuse to compensate them diligently for the setbacks suffered in the delivery of services.

I honestly did not know what to say to these citizens, so I ask you what you would say to them.

[Dominic Rochon]

Thank you for your question.

Unfortunately, the situation we've faced in the last few years is quite extraordinary, after all.

As you know, the pandemic happened. Once the worst of it was over, passenger numbers suddenly jumped last summer by 300%, according to the figures I have. That contributed significantly to the difficulties that occurred this summer. Then there was this rather unique situation of all these storms that came through over the holiday season.

The only thing the Canadian government can say is that they are well aware of the situation, that they are doing their best, that they are bringing all the players in the ecosystem together to try to rectify the situation and fix the problems.

I think some progress has been made regarding the difficulties that arose over the summer, but there is more to be done, particularly with regard to the Air Passenger Protection Regulations, which we are talking about today, to strike a better balance in the future.

With the help of the experts on this committee and with the discussions that are going on, I hope we will get there.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Schiefke]

Thank you very much, Mr. Rochon and Ms. Vignola.

Next is Mr. Bachrach.

Mr. Bachrach, the floor is yours. You have two and a half minutes.

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. I'm going to try to fit in two questions, so please bear with me.

Ms. Pégeot, you clarified that the fines issued to WestJet were not for failure to provide compensation. Has the CTA ever levied fines against an airline for failing to provide compensation under APPR?

[France Pégeot]

No.

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Why not?

[France Pégeot]

It's because what we have done...we have proceeded with that. As I said, the first thing we do is that we really focus, first of all, on complaints, because this is what puts money in the pockets of consumers. The first line of action for the CTA is really around that.

The other thing is that this is a relatively new regime, right? We started to do complaints that are under APPR not that long ago. In some cases, we have tried, but at the same time, too, we need complaints for that, and in some cases the companies have resolved the complaints informally with passengers.

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

I find it quite alarming that despite all the 33,000 complaints, there have been no fines for failure to provide compensation. However, I'm going to move on to the officials from Transport Canada.

I'd like to speak to a slightly different issue. We've been focused on the situations faced by air passengers. Of course, on board those aircraft are also flight attendants, who are in many cases stuck in the same situations that the passengers are and are tasked with the very difficult job of managing hundreds of passengers under stressful and trying circumstances.

First, I want to thank them for the hard work they do. Second, I want to raise some of their concerns that have come to light.

First of all, I wasn't aware that flight attendants aren't paid unless they're actually on a flight. The recent disruptions have increased dramatically the amount of time that flight attendants aren't on board a flight, and have affected their overall pay. Secondly, the kind of duty time regulations that apply to pilots are not extended to flight attendants working in the back of the plane, despite the fact that their roles are critical to the safety of the passengers on board that aircraft.

Is the department aware of these concerns? Is it working on policy to address them?

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Schiefke]

Could we have a very short answer, please?

[Colin Stacey, Director General, Air Policy, Department of Transport]

I'll start with the issue on payment and how that applies.

These would be included in collective agreements. I don't think it's something we could particularly comment on. It's an arrangement between the employer and the employee.

[Nicholas Robinson]

I'll speak to the flight and duty time regulations. That is an issue that has been raised by flight attendants. We are looking at the issue.

As you know, the flight and duty times for aircrews have just come in. We're implementing those, but it's something that we look to address, either through their safety management system or, if there's a need, through stand-alone regulations.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Schiefke]

Thank you very much, Mr. Robinson, and thank you, Mr. Bachrach.

Finally today, we will go to Ms. Lantsman, to whom we will give three minutes to ensure we finish somewhat on time.

Ms. Lantsman, the floor is yours. You have three minutes.

[Melissa Lantsman, Conservative, Thornhill, ON]

Thanks.

Madame Pégeot, I want to come back to a question I started before. It's my understanding that the CTA and Transport Canada regularly exchange encrypted emails. It is my understanding that some of these emails have been deleted. I'm going to give you the opportunity. Maybe you misspoke in saying that's not the case, but an affidavit that the CTA filed in Federal Court suggests the opposite.

For every Canadian watching, for every Canadian who has a complaint filed with the CTA and for all those who were left sleeping on airport floors and shuffled from hotel lobby to hotel lobby in a foreign country, I want to know how you ensure transparency and independence if the public cannot scrutinize any of the emails through access to information or any of the tools that we as an opposition have at hand.

I want to know how it's possible that you would serve the Canadian public, who are looking for answers and who I'm not sure have found any in this hour of this committee, and how you ensure they get the information they need through the right channels, if you're using encrypted email to speak to the Government of Canada about cases?

[France Pégeot]

Just as any citizen can have access to information, they can have access to the different documents we work on.

We speak with Transport Canada. We exchange emails. We have meetings.

I want to reassure the committee, Mr. Chair, that when it comes to complaints, there is a clear wall between the agency and Transport Canada. The members of the agency who make decisions on complaints are totally independent.

I myself have no authority over the members. They have been appointed by the Governor in Council based on good behaviour, so they cannot be fired if the government does not like the decisions they make. Contrary to other Governor in Council positions that are appointed, we call it “at pleasure”, so there is absolute independence. I invite you to consult the independence statement on our website, which provides a lot of details on how we ensure our independence.