Transport Committee on Jan. 26th, 2023

[Rita Toporowski]

Once again, to the passengers who were involved and suffered through the extended delay, I apologize.

I appreciate what you say. First off, thanks for your travel with us. You're right; we do often get many commendations as a result of our great service. I think that's why we're taking it very personally that we did not live up to our expectations. Our passengers expect better of us, and we weren't able to deliver in this case.

I think, putting in context the number of trains that were delayed, in most cases we managed to properly communicate, at least much better. Even if we didn't hit this data, we were fairly good at keeping people apprised of what was going on. We managed to get food to certain trains where we could get access to it.

I think the outlier is train 55. Given the protracted delay and given the lack of clear information that we were able to garner, there was misinformation we offered the passengers. We exacerbated the level of anxiety of those passengers on board, and that's on us for not properly and clearly communicating what we were doing and reassuring them. That's where our learning has to come from, so we're doing a deep dive and obviously an overview of everything we did with all our trains, but very specifically with train 55. What could we do differently to make it better next time?

[Annie Koutrakis, Liberal, Vimy, QC]

Thank you for your response.

What we've heard through your testimony is that Via is essentially dependent on other track owners on most of its routes. These track owners also operate their own substantial businesses or services over the same tracks that essentially compete for track or station space with Via Rail.

Please quickly describe the challenges of this ownership structure. How would high frequency rail avoid the chronic problems that arise, and would it?

[Martin R. Landry]

Thank you for your question. I think it's very relevant to have this discussion from a policy perspective.

We deal in an environment where the host railways dictate the priorities of the trains. They provide an essential service to Canadians, moving a significant amount of goods, and they're key contributors to the supply chain. There's always this fine balance about who ultimately wins out. As long as we live in this environment where there's mixed traffic and the host dictates the priorities, we're unlikely to be able to provide the level of customer service that we would like to provide to our customers and that we believe they should be entitled to.

This led, ultimately, to the development of the high frequency rail proposal, in which we segment that traffic in order for us to be able to better dispatch passenger rail trains and in order to provide them the service that they're entitled to.

[Annie Koutrakis, Liberal, Vimy, QC]

I believe it was in your comments, Mr. Brankley, that you talked about a new fleet that is coming in short order. If this new fleet had been in place, how might it have affected how well you were able to respond to these events, or would it not have had any impact in these circumstances whatsoever?

[Michael Brankley]

Thank you for the question, MP Koutrakis.

In the circumstances in question, I don't believe a new fleet would have led to any significantly different outcomes.

[Annie Koutrakis, Liberal, Vimy, QC]

Okay.

We hear criticism from my honourable colleagues about Minister Alghabra not having personally communicated directly with your contact. Could you please explain to our committee and to Canadians at large whether it would have made any difference if the minister had communicated directly himself?

Did you have the support from Transport Canada and the minister's office for what you required at that very specific moment? Would it have made a difference? If so, how?

[Martin R. Landry]

I think it's important to remember that the events were really focused around operations and re-establishing operations. Most of our contacts with Transport Canada were very much focused on resuming these operations.

The solution was simple. The solution was to remove the derailed train in order for the infrastructure to be made available to Via Rail trains. That was clear from the moment the derailment happened. That's how we spent most of our energy—working with Transport Canada officials and CN to focus on enabling that solution to take place.

We believe we were, at that point, dealing with the proper contacts because, as I mentioned, these were very operation-centric discussions we were having.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Schiefke]

Thank you very much, Ms. Koutrakis.

Thank you once again, Mr. Landry.

Next we have Mr. Strahl.

The floor is yours. You have five minutes.

[Mark Strahl, Conservative, Chilliwack—Hope, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I understand that the Liberals get a bit sensitive when I talk about the minister being accountable and active on this file. They might think it's okay to wait two-plus weeks to engage with companies that experienced massive travel delays and whose passengers were severely impacted over the holidays. If that's the level of accountability and leadership that they believe the minister should have, I guess they can defend that. I make no apologies for saying the minister should have been more engaged, more quickly with all industry players as this crisis unfolded.

I want to talk a bit about the food and beverage situation. At what point does Via switch over from a point-of-sale situation, where you're selling food and beverages to passengers, to giving it out for free because you're in a difficult situation?

How many hours into a crisis like this does the food that's on board become available to all passengers, regardless of their ability to pay?

[Rita Toporowski]

Thank you, MP Strahl, for the question.

There is a protocol in place. When we have delays, after a 45-minute delay, we basically open up our emergency snacks and water and provide them for free. At that point in time, we stop the regular service and provide the free. Another 45 minutes later, we go through another run-through and provide additional snacks and food for free. After that, we start assessing how long we think the delay is going to be. Should we believe it's going to be much more protracted, we would open the carts we have on board the trains.

Next to that, should we have access to a station, we would find a way of getting to the station and getting the extra food that is in the station. Next to that, should it be even more protracted, we would order food and have it brought to the station or brought to the train.

In the case of some of the trains, we were able to do that. In the case of train 55, we were unable to do that. I understand that on train 55, we were selling food, and that is against what we normally would have done. Once again, that's a failure on our part and it caused anxiety to the passengers on board. For that, I apologize.

[Mark Strahl, Conservative, Chilliwack—Hope, BC]

Have passengers who had to buy food well into that delay been refunded for those purchases?

[Rita Toporowski]

At this point in time, I do not know the answer to that question. I don't believe we've been able to identify who that was. That is something we continue to look at.

[Mark Strahl, Conservative, Chilliwack—Hope, BC]

I would suggest that this would be something that the review look at because, again, it was a bit shocking to read that passengers were forced to pay for food when they couldn't get off the train.

My next question would be regarding the washroom facilities. We heard that they obviously, over a number of hours, were perhaps at capacity. Is there anything in the regulations, anything that would allow employees in a situation like that to perhaps do what they otherwise never would do to ensure passengers were able to have hygienic access to washrooms? Obviously, as you know, your tanks are full and you're stuck for an unexpected amount of time. That doesn't change the fact that customers on board still need access to clean and safe washroom facilities.

What provisions are there to ensure that access is available? Do changes need to be made to protect passengers in situations like this in the future?

[Rita Toporowski]

Thank you again for that question, MP Strahl.

You're right. Given the protracted delay, there was an issue in terms of the number of washrooms that were available on all the trains. In every case, at least one or two washrooms were functioning at all times.

To your point, is there something the employees can do? In some cases, they actually did overrides. They walked through and had to do a manual reset on the washroom after it had been used. It's not a pretty thing to do. It's not a nice thing to do, but it's a necessity. They actually managed to do that in order to keep at least one or two washrooms functioning. The difficulty for passengers is that they were not in yellow cars, so in a larger context, having one or two functional washrooms is not acceptable.

In this particular case, that's what we were working with. This will be part of the fulsome review and then, based on any kind of benchmarking or any kinds of recommendations we have, we'll take a look at what we can do to improve.

[Mark Strahl, Conservative, Chilliwack—Hope, BC]

Thank you very much.

I'm not sure who should take this question. Going back to the emergency services, obviously for everyone along the route, for all the communities along the route, I imagine there is a relationship with those first responder groups: firefighters, the police, ambulances, etc. Has that protocol been reviewed in light of the obvious cascading effect here, with derailments and impacts both forward and backward in terms of where the train was?

Are you satisfied that the emergency plans that are in place are adequate, or has this exposed gaps even in that? What if there had been a more severe incident? Are you satisfied that your emergency plans and your relationships with those providers are adequate at this time?

[Michael Brankley]

Thank you for your question, MP Strahl.

Traditionally, those relationships were entirely managed between CN and their CN police force and local communities. Forgive me, as I can't recall the date, but in my time at CN, a Via police force was created and developed, and that force has developed relationships with forces along, first of all, Via infrastructure, and then reaching out to corridor infrastructure. That outreach continues across the country so that we have relationships and communications between emergency services and our organization.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Schiefke]

Thank you very much, Mr. Brankley.

Thank you, Mr. Strahl.

Just to follow up on Mr. Strahl's question, Ms. Toporowski, if and when the passengers who had no other choice but to purchase the food are reimbursed, could you kindly confirm that with this committee, please?

[Rita Toporowski]

Yes, Mr. Chair. I will.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Schiefke]

Thank you very much.

Next we have Mr. Rogers.

Mr. Rogers, the floor is yours. You have five minutes.

[Churence Rogers, Liberal, Bonavista—Burin—Trinity, NL]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

First of all, let me welcome our Via Rail reps who are with us today. It's greatly appreciated.

When it comes to weather and storms, of course, I don't ride trains. I live on an island. We often experience delays and setbacks because of extreme snow conditions and weather conditions.

I can appreciate the challenges that Via was facing in this particular incident. I think back to 2020 and what we in Newfoundland affectionately call “Snowmageddon”, when the entire city of St. John's was buried under not centimetres of snow but feet of snow—many feet of snow—as well as the entire Avalon region and parts of the island. This can pose a lot of challenges for all sectors.

I listened very carefully to your comments, and I read your written submission about the challenges you faced and the things you had to endure to try to keep your passengers safe. I certainly sympathize with those passengers.

Of course, in retrospect, what are Via's thoughts on how planning for such extreme winter storms can be improved, especially with regard to communications such as those you talked about with Transport Canada and, more particularly, with the passengers and CN? If you would offer some comments on that, I'd appreciate it.

[Michael Brankley]

Thank you, MP Rogers.

Yes, we are seeing evidence of extreme weather. In fact, we're at this time in the middle of our fourth winter activation of the season due to the current snow conditions in the corridor.

I mentioned previously that we've met with CN to improve those communications, operation centre to operation centre. Passenger communications are being reviewed, and our CN communications will be reviewed by our third party external review as part of our ongoing debrief and post-mortem.

I apologize, but there was another section of the question.

[Churence Rogers, Liberal, Bonavista—Burin—Trinity, NL]

I was just wondering how communications can be improved with all parties involved—Transport Canada, passengers in particular and CN.

[Michael Brankley]

I thank you again.

I would suggest that in most cases we have been successful in passenger communications. In this particular incident we had areas where we didn't live up to our own standards, and for that we apologize to our customers. We're working internally to improve that, and then we're going to put that through an external assessment as well.

We've had—

[Rita Toporowski]

Perhaps, MP Rogers, I may add to that from a passenger perspective. I think a few things that came to the forefront were clarity—as much specificity as possible—and frequency. On those two counts, we were lacking in this particular case on a few of the trains. On the other trains we were much better at managing through it.

I think, though, we're going to focus on those particular areas, but as Mr. Brankley mentioned, it will be part of the fulsome review with our communications.

[Churence Rogers, Liberal, Bonavista—Burin—Trinity, NL]

Thank you for that.

I was just wondering if Via has ever experienced extreme storm events in the past. How were you coping in the past versus coping with this particular incident?