Transport Committee on Oct. 7th, 2025

[Johanne Couture]

It's because they aren't shown everything. They aren't given all the training. They're just shown how to take the test at the Société d'assurance automobile du Québec, or SAAQ, or Serco Canada, or any other similar centre in other provinces. The purpose of this type of business is not to get them to become professional drivers.

[Jason Groleau, Conservative, Beauce, QC]

Do you feel safe on our roads?

[Johanne Couture]

No, I don't feel safe. Ms. Walker referred earlier to Routes 11 and 17. I don't want to use them.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Schiefke]

Thank you, Ms. Couture.

Thank you very much, Mr. Groleau.

Mr. Barsalou‑Duval, you have the floor for two and a half minutes.

[Xavier Barsalou-Duval, Bloc, Pierre-Boucher—Les Patriotes—Verchères, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

The testimony today is quite striking.

Ms. Couture and Ms. Walker, you said that those drivers were paid 38¢ per mile, compared to a normal rate of 78¢ per mile. I don't know what that means, 38¢ or 78¢ per mile. What I take from this is that those drivers are paid about half of what a driver usually makes.

Let's take the example of 38¢ per mile. For someone who works full time, what does that mean in terms of salary?

[Johanne Couture]

I'd have to do the math—

[Xavier Barsalou-Duval, Bloc, Pierre-Boucher—Les Patriotes—Verchères, QC]

For 78¢, how much would they get? We'll be able to deduce how much they get for 38¢.

[Johanne Couture]

For 78¢, that would be a salary of $100,000 per year.

[Xavier Barsalou-Duval, Bloc, Pierre-Boucher—Les Patriotes—Verchères, QC]

So those drivers are paid roughly $50,000 a year compared to $100,000 a year.

[Johanne Couture]

Yes, that's right.

[Xavier Barsalou-Duval, Bloc, Pierre-Boucher—Les Patriotes—Verchères, QC]

You said that a lot of those people come from temporary immigration. Their passports would be confiscated. They'd also be threatened by their community because they have temporary status and can be removed from the country at any time.

Yesterday, the Bloc Québécois and industry representatives proposed ten measures that the government could implement. Mr. Laskowski mentioned some of them. I'm thinking in particular of the measure to increase the number of audits that the Canada Revenue Agency and Employment and Social Development Canada do.

We'd go even further. We believe that audits should be done automatically for any new business in the field. The right of temporary immigrants to incorporate should also be eliminated. They could still work, but as salaried employees, so that they would be supervised. As a result, employers would be held responsible for unpaid taxes.

Do you agree with those recommendations?

[Johanne Couture]

Yes, I totally agree.

Immigrants should be prohibited from incorporating when they arrive in this country. They arrive here on a temporary work permit. We should give them the opportunity to work as wage earners so that they can learn how things are done in Canada. They may come from a country with different customs and standards.

If they are employees, training must be provided to them. At the same time, they'll learn about their rights and responsibilities.

[Xavier Barsalou-Duval, Bloc, Pierre-Boucher—Les Patriotes—Verchères, QC]

Thank you very much, Ms. Couture.

Ms. Splinter, you used an expression earlier that corresponds to the following proverb in French: “if you can't beat them, join them,” which means that one should do as those companies do.

In your opinion, what would be the impact on the industry if everyone started operating under the Driver Inc. model?

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Schiefke]

There are 15 seconds left.

[Angela Splinter]

I think we'll have significant implications to all workers. Employers are very frustrated, and it's very hard for them to operate in an unfair market. These are real concerns that I think impact all of us. We've heard today about the issues around training and safety. We need to address this issue.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Schiefke]

Thank you very much, Mr. Barsalou-Duval.

Thank you, Ms. Splinter.

Dr. Lewis, you have the floor for five minutes, please.

[Leslyn Lewis, Conservative, Haldimand—Norfolk, ON]

Thank you.

In regions like Haldimand-Norfolk, trucking is the backbone of our local economy. It supports our farmers, manufacturers and small businesses that depend on reliable transportation to move goods across the province and the country. I'm hearing a growing concern with the Driver Inc. model that it is undermining competition, exploiting workers and creating serious gaps in safety. This problem is something that has been building for years, and this Liberal government has failed to act.

My question is for the Canadian Trucking Alliance.

In your opinion, do you believe that the government should do more like legislating a model of shared responsibility where incorporation remains possible but carriers cannot use it to shield against safety, tax and labour obligations?

[Stephen Laskowski]

Incorporation is important to our industry as owner-operators. You have an example right here. Johanne and Shelley are owner-operators. They are incorporated. In essence, they are small businesses, but they operate under the small business act and run their business accordingly.

What needs to be understood here is that there are zero taxable benefits to incorporating as a truck driver as a personal services business.

Folks, if we had to do a quick show of hands and I asked you if you wanted to incorporate as a PSB but pay more taxes, would anybody want to sign up? That's the reality of the personal services business tax model.

By the way, you forgo overtime. You forgo holiday pay. You forgo 10 paid sick days. That's thousands of dollars, and you pay more tax.

[Leslyn Lewis, Conservative, Haldimand—Norfolk, ON]

Thank you for that answer.

We also know that the current Liberal government has not taken the safety concerns of Driver Inc. seriously. Transport Canada data itself shows that driver fatigue is a factor in a significant number of commercial vehicle crashes. Can you please tell me about the gaps in enforcing breaks and rest time, and in making sure that the cause of fatigue and the risk to citizens is not present on the highways, and how Driver Inc. affects that?

[Stephen Laskowski]

I'll pass it to Jeff, and I'll add a little comment, just to clarify for committee members.

In short, enforcement of those rules is a provincial responsibility. However, what we are asking the national government and committees to do is to audit carriers. Over 90% of the trucking companies in this province, Ontario, are known as “satisfactory—unaudited”. What does that mean, folks? Nobody knows anything about them. Nobody has visited them, ever. We need to change our thinking about how we audit and govern our trucking industry from a safety perspective.

I take no great pleasure in what I'm about to say: Do not trust us. You can trust my members. They will always do the right thing and put safety first. They will park a truck and park a driver if they believe that truck is unsafe or that driver isn't fit for the road. They will forgo the money. However, there are a growing number of carriers who couldn't care less, and you just heard about it. They will put a driver in an unsafe truck, and they couldn't care less about who they impact. As I just said to you, 25% cent of carriers that ESDC goes back to see and to enforce are gone.

[Leslyn Lewis, Conservative, Haldimand—Norfolk, ON]

Who is accountable for auditing compliance, for example, in the Driver Inc. situation? Is it the carrier, the trucking company, the incorporated driver or the driver? For example, who makes sure that logs aren't fabricated, that they're not taking loads that are too heavy, that breaks are taken and that there's an audited enforcement of the entire industry? Whose responsibility is that?

[Stephen Laskowski]

The quick answer is this: From a labour perspective, it's shared by ESDC, or the department of labour, and provincial authorities. From a tax perspective, it's CRA. From a safety perspective, it's a joint process. The actual “on the road” is done by the provinces, but the federal government here in Transport Canada has a role.

Geoff, maybe you can explain a bit of the role of Transport Canada in truck safety.

[Geoffrey Wood, Senior Vice-President, Policy, Canadian Trucking Alliance]

Transport Canada governs hours of service—so how long drivers can drive—and the transportation of dangerous goods. They have delegated, through the Motor Vehicle Transport Act the authority to the provinces and territories to manage truck safety. Transport's role is, really, twofold. They control the regulations, hours of services and dangerous goods, but they have also, through the Motor Vehicle Transport Act, delegated the authority to the provinces to do the safety piece.

We feel there is a role for Transport Canada to develop a system through which coordinated or consistent data goes in, and then everybody can be measured the same way. That process is under way. We need that accelerated.

[Leslyn Lewis, Conservative, Haldimand—Norfolk, ON]

How are they currently doing in—

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Schiefke]

Thank you, Dr. Lewis.

Unfortunately, we went over by 40 seconds. It was a great question, so I wanted to give you the time to get the answer.