Evidence of meeting #9 for Transport, Infrastructure and Communities in the 45th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was training.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Peter Schiefke
Thank you very much, Mr. Adams.
Thank you, Mr. Barsalou‑Duval.
Next, we'll go to a lightning round with Mr. Barrett for four minutes, followed by Ms. Nguyen for four minutes.
Mr. Barrett, the floor is yours.
Conservative
Michael Barrett Conservative Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands—Rideau Lakes, ON
Thanks very much.
I want to quickly say thank you to Johanne Couture, who was here on the last panel, for her role in the trucking industry, and I want to welcome Mark Seymour. These are two constituents of the great riding of Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands—Rideau Lakes. It's a pleasure to have your voice elevated in Parliament today.
Mr. Seymour, do you think the current enforcement by the Government of Canada and federal agencies is enough with respect to labour laws, tax laws and immigration laws?
Chief Executive Officer, Kriska Transportation Group
No, or we wouldn't have this problem.
There's regulation in place, but there's not enough oversight and enforcement. It's the enforcement piece that's missing. I don't think there's necessarily a need for more regulation, but there's one hell of a need for enforcement of the existing regulation.
Conservative
Michael Barrett Conservative Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands—Rideau Lakes, ON
All right.
Can you tell me about the impact on local jobs? I should note that your company, Kriska, has consistently been named one of Canada's best-managed companies. Congratulations on that.
Conservative
Michael Barrett Conservative Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands—Rideau Lakes, ON
It sounds like some of those jobs are disappearing with the expansion of this Driver Inc. model. What's the impact on the number of jobs you're able to offer in Prescott, Ontario, given the current state of affairs?
Chief Executive Officer, Kriska Transportation Group
Each time we contract our fleet, there's not an equal number of non-driving staff, but, as I said earlier, the contraction of the size of our business has been about 25% over the last two years—not all in one month, but it has been a slow burn over time. Through the growth of Driver Inc., there's been a contraction of non-Driver Inc. carriers and employers. Our economy isn't growing, the movement of goods is not growing and, therefore, the need for more capacity is not there. It's simply a transition from the taxpaying, law-abiding trucking companies towards the movement of Driver Inc.
Our employment numbers have been cut by 25%. We have gone from approximately 1,200 employees to approximately 950 employers in the last two years simply because of this. It has not been because of any reason other than this.
Conservative
Michael Barrett Conservative Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands—Rideau Lakes, ON
I have just about a minute left, and I have two questions for you.
Do you think that National Safety Code standard 16 should be mandatory and would it help if that were enforced?
Can you quickly comment on the effect on the travelling public of the Driver Inc. model? How safe are people driving on Canada's highways with drivers who don't meet the standards you require of your drivers?
Chief Executive Officer, Kriska Transportation Group
On the National Safety Code, if there's going to be a national code, there needs to be national oversight, national enforcement and a national audit. Without all four pieces of that, it's not going to work.
On safety, if people are out driving a big truck fully loaded at 80,000 pounds with limited training, it stands to reason they're not going to be as safe as the alternative: someone who's properly trained and properly prepared to do that type of work. Its just common sense to me.
Conservative
Liberal
Liberal
Chi Nguyen Liberal Spadina—Harbourfront, ON
Thank you very much.
Thank you again to the witnesses for joining us for another really important round of conversation on this topic.
Mr. Adams, thank you for keeping our streets safe in Toronto. Every time I pass a truck when I'm on my bicycle, I hold my breath, just in case, because I'm nervous as a cyclist. I want to feel safe on our roads. I think every Canadian deserves that.
Chairman of the Board, Truck Training Schools Association of Ontario
Do you move to the right as well?
Liberal
Chi Nguyen Liberal Spadina—Harbourfront, ON
Always—that's what we do, and those bike lanes are also important.
I want to ask a quick follow-up question to Mr. Seymour. On the reduction of your workforce, do you have a sense of whether or not those drivers have left trucking in general, or have they gone to a different model?
Chief Executive Officer, Kriska Transportation Group
They wouldn't leave our model for the other model because they would not want to give up their employment rights and protections, their holidays and their sick pay, etc. Most of our contraction has been through attrition or through retirement. In some cases, they've moved on to a different profession. It's been over time that there's been a contraction, but we don't lose people to the Driver Inc. model because they won't give up what they have while working at our place.
Liberal
Chi Nguyen Liberal Spadina—Harbourfront, ON
Thank you. That's helpful context for me.
I would love to hear a recommendation from each of you around the right role for the federal government here. It's the province's role to do the safety piece and enforcement, but where should we draw the line? We talked about the national standards. Does that make sense, given the role the province has?
Chairman of the Board, Truck Training Schools Association of Ontario
Absolutely, I think the national safety standard...but, again, the CRA should be getting involved in this as well. Let's see where some of these payments are coming from, if we do have these offshore payments. It's a good way to catch some of the players quickly, so that we can remove the bad apples and the non-compliance, so we can start making our roads safer.
Consultant, As an Individual
Exactly, we should start with that, and that would be a good thing to do.
Chief Executive Officer, Kriska Transportation Group
The reinstatement of T4A brings a federal oversight to this as well. Without that, there's not the conduit between the CRA and the contractor who's pretending to be a contractor but is, really, an employee. The T4A reinstatement by federal jurisdiction, with oversight, would be a very important tool.
Liberal
Chi Nguyen Liberal Spadina—Harbourfront, ON
Thank you very much.
I'm done with my questions. Mr. Lauzon can take the rest of my time.
Liberal
Stéphane Lauzon Liberal Argenteuil—La Petite-Nation, QC
Thank you very much, Ms. Nguyen, for sharing your time with me.
Mr. Bourgeois, earlier you made a rather important comment for this committee with regard to SAAQ exams.
Our legislation allows provinces and territories to interpret regulations. However, you mentioned that in doing a quick search on SAAQ exams, you found that there were a lot of irregularities during the exams, which we find quite absurd.
On the SAAQ site, it says that the conduct of exams is monitored, that cameras are strictly prohibited, that SAAQ professionals are present, that exams must be in French or English and that supervision is provided on-site. So you're telling this committee that the SAAQ is really on the wrong track.
For the benefit of this committee, could you tell us more about how the SAAQ is on the wrong track when it comes to issuing licences?
Consultant, As an Individual
A public study even showed that bribes were paid and people got their driver's licences as a result. All of this information is public.
Liberal
Stéphane Lauzon Liberal Argenteuil—La Petite-Nation, QC
With respect to the practical test, you told us two things.
You said that some people who take the practical test are unable to read signs. However, SAAQ officials accompany them during the test. They have to monitor them, and they know the language displayed, which can only be French or English. No other language or translation is permitted. The SAAQ site specifies that signage can only be in English or French.
You're telling us that some drivers who don't speak French or English take to the road with SAAQ escorts, that they're unable to read traffic signs, but that they have a driver's licence.
Can you tell us more about that?
Consultant, As an Individual
Go to Boulevard Henri-Bourrassa in Montreal. That's where the hub is. I'll give you a tour of the area without any problem.
Liberal
Stéphane Lauzon Liberal Argenteuil—La Petite-Nation, QC
For the benefit of this committee, I think it's very important that we be able to act on the recommendations. We're not going to be able to deal with everything at once, but if we can deal with each of the small pieces this way, that's fine.
Earlier, in response to a question from Mr. Barrett, Mr. Seymour contradicted himself. The question was whether the federal government could do more. The answer was yes, but that the provinces should be given more responsibility for claims.
Mr. Seymour told us that the provinces need to legislate more, but—