Veterans Affairs Committee on March 23rd, 2010

[André Bouchard]

Absolutely not, if the diagnosis is supported by the written medical evidence. The doctor's report is read but it is not challenged. If we need additional justification, we will ask the client to go back to see his doctor for the missing information. As a general rule, a medical report is sufficient. Once the diagnosis has been established and it is clear that it is the right diagnosis, we will not challenge the evidence.

[Guy André, Bloc, Berthier—Maskinongé, QC]

Thank you. I have a question for Mr. Kettle. Ms. Sgro asked a question, and your answer surprised me a little. I would like you to elaborate on it.

Ms. Sgro talked about people dealing with difficult situations, who might have a tendency to commit suicide after experiencing a traumatic event and who are fragile from a mental health standpoint. You said that when they meet with a specialist after being monitored for a few months, you would know what the true situation was if they were honest. The issue of honesty surprised me. I always thought that when someone was dealing with a mental health problem, it was not necessarily a question of honesty but rather a question of whether he or she was prepared to share certain things or not. It has to do with where a person is at, and that can sometimes be hard to identify. I would like your comments on this matter of honesty.

[BGen D.C. Kettle]

I perhaps wasn't as clear as I should have been. Every service member sees the social worker three or four months, I think it is, after the deployment. It depends on the person's journey whether they're ready or not at this stage to say to the therapist that they're experiencing these challenges and need therapy to handle the situation. Some soldiers, sailors, and air personnel aren't ready at that stage and they do not want to declare that they have challenges; therefore, there's not a lot that can be done.

Hopefully, though, there's a network of people, both family members and people they work with, who will notice that there have been changes in this person's behaviour and will encourage that person to seek help.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Sweet]

Monsieur André, we're way over time now, and I know your colleague is not going to be happy with you.

It's my understanding that probably after the Liberal questions the questioning will be exhausted. I think I can prevail upon the committee to allow Mr. Vincent at least a couple of minutes.

We'll now go to Madame Crombie for five minutes.

[Bonnie Crombie, Liberal, Mississauga—Streetsville, ON]

Okay. I can even share my time perhaps, if time allows.

I want to ask about the death benefits. I noticed in our briefing notes it said that if death occurs within 30 days after an injury or disease, the veteran receives the amount equivalent to the disability award.

What happens if death doesn't occur for 90 days, 60 days, or 31 days? What's the entitlement?

[André Bouchard]

The death benefit you are mentioning is through Veterans Affairs Canada. At SISIP we also have life insurance and we don't have this provision. So once death occurs a claim will be paid, because a member can voluntarily take out life insurance up to $400,000 on their own. So even if they're killed in an operational theatre such as Afghanistan, we will pay the claim. We don't have an exclusion for a war theatre, so we pay the amount.

This specific question relates to the death benefit paid by VAC, so I cannot answer that question.

[Bonnie Crombie, Liberal, Mississauga—Streetsville, ON]

Fair enough.

Does SISIP provide physical and mental rehab services to vets after they leave the armed forces?

[André Bouchard]

We don't.

[Bonnie Crombie, Liberal, Mississauga—Streetsville, ON]

Go ahead, jump in.

[Rob Oliphant, Liberal, Don Valley West, ON]

The issue of the joint steering committee for veterans and DND was mentioned. At this meeting it was mentioned that DND is cancelling a position on the chaplaincy and hoping that Veterans Affairs will pick it up. It's a small example of some of the problems we see between the two departments. If this were a business or a non-profit agency, one would not cancel a position until a new position was established, or the communication.... Was that brought up at the steering committee? Was there a plan to make that transfer?

[Col Gerry Blais]

The future of the pastoral outreach program was raised at the steering committee, and Veterans Affairs has agreed to take over the program. However, they've decided to manage it differently than when it was a joint program.

[Bonnie Crombie, Liberal, Mississauga—Streetsville, ON]

The earnings loss benefit does not count as income, yet it's taxable, and it doesn't contribute to the CPP. Is that correct?

[André Bouchard]

The earnings loss benefit is with respect to VAC. It is a taxable benefit.

[Bonnie Crombie, Liberal, Mississauga—Streetsville, ON]

It's a taxable benefit, yet it doesn't contribute to CPP.

[André Bouchard]

That's my understanding.

[Bonnie Crombie, Liberal, Mississauga—Streetsville, ON]

Because it doesn't count as income, it does not contribute to your CPP, but it's a taxable benefit. That's for clarification. Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Sweet]

We'll go to the final questioner, who is probably most happy about this.

Mr. Vincent.

[Robert Vincent, Bloc, Shefford, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I am lucky because I get all the remaining time. I would like to come back to the topic of suicide, which interests me.

Mr. Kettle, are you aware of the study involving 8,000 soldiers carried out at the University of Manitoba and dealing specifically with suicide?

[BGen D.C. Kettle]

No.

[Robert Vincent, Bloc, Shefford, QC]

There are two findings in it that stand out.

The first is that people in the regular army do not complain about post-traumatic stress problems because they might jeopardize their advancement by revealing that kind of information.

Within the regular forces, that is what we hear and what I have seen in the reports. If soldiers reveal the fact that they are experiencing or have experienced post-traumatic stress, they will not move up when advancement opportunities come.

Are you aware of that, and is it possible that military personnel do not talk about PTSD for that reason?

[BGen D.C. Kettle]

I can honestly say there was a time when that was accurate, but I believe that was 10 years ago. I believe that soldiers, sailors, and air personnel may hold the idea that if they address their stress problems there will be problems for them as far as advancement in their careers. But I do not believe that is the case any more. I think that's more a problem with people's individual beliefs and trust in the system, so I do not believe it's a factor today.

[Robert Vincent, Bloc, Shefford, QC]

I want to say that what I am talking about is something that I read recently. Moreover, the regular forces should do more in the way of medical monitoring of people coming back from an operational mission.

The University of Manitoba study, for example, points out that witnessing atrocities, murders or serious injuries doubles the risk of someone wanting to commit suicide. That means that soldiers in an operational setting who see someone get killed or dismembered are twice as likely to commit suicide. The risk is four times higher if personnel have killed or injured another person.

If the risk is doubled when someone witnesses that kind of situation and quadrupled when the person is responsible for the death or injury, it seems to me that the Canadian Forces should be questioning those people to see whether they are suffering from post-traumatic stress syndrome. We do know that there have been some 50 suicides over the past 3 years.

What is your view?

[BGen D.C. Kettle]

I'm not sure I followed the question closely enough to respond. I'm sorry.

[Robert Vincent, Bloc, Shefford, QC]

The risk of suicide is twice as high in cases where people witness someone being killed or dismembered in a theatre of operations and four times as high when people kill or injure someone.

Is there any medical monitoring with respect to post-traumatic stress syndrome, since we know that a number of people have committed suicide following an operational mission?

[BGen D.C. Kettle]

Of course, when people have been in situations like that where post-traumatic stress disorder is more of a likelihood, we're going to watch them more carefully and make sure they get the care they require.

I'm sorry there's not a doctor here to address your question. I'm a chaplain.