Evidence of meeting #24 for Veterans Affairs in the 42nd Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was believe.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Liberal
Colin Fraser Liberal West Nova, NS
Okay. What's the timeline that you're thinking of in terms of having all the benefits and services in place? How long would you think that would take?
National Defence and Canadian Forces Ombudsman
I'm an operator. I come from the private sector. I spent 25 years delivering service in logistics and those types of things. I think we can do it fairly quickly.
One of the things we have to be very cognizant of is that by holding members we can't start costing millions and millions of dollars waiting for process delay. I think if we put in a proper system, where attribution of service is determined, right off the top eight weeks goes away. We don't have to adjudicate whether you're in the club or out. We know you're in as the CAF has told us. That's gone immediately.
Then for the pension piece, I think the chief of the defence staff has a good plan of attack on that. We're going to get that caught up. In talking this morning, we were saying 30 days max before a pension cheque is in the mail.
It's all in there. I think it can be done very quickly. It's not reinventing the wheel. I just think it's a fundamental change in how we do things.
Liberal
Colin Fraser Liberal West Nova, NS
We're all talking about medically released members from the forces, but as you identified, it's overly complex as well for non-medical releases. Do you think we should try this out first on medical releases, see how things go, tweak it, and then maybe this would be a model for all releasing forces members?
National Defence and Canadian Forces Ombudsman
There goes my next systemic review.
Exactly. I think even the chief of the defence staff has alluded to that. We need to get this in place for those who are our most vulnerable right now, to help those groups. But I do believe we can see extension across the forces on what type of service this could be, helping people get to second careers, or whatever it is that they have planned. Yes, I do believe it could be expanded.
Liberal
Colin Fraser Liberal West Nova, NS
Do you see working with outside partner organizations as well to ensure that they get services, not just with the ones that are directly in the VAC umbrella of services, but third parties, for example?
National Defence and Canadian Forces Ombudsman
I think everyone has to be involved. When we start talking about transitioning out, anything that's going to touch on that member as he's transitioning needs to be part of the conversation and involved.
Liberal
Colin Fraser Liberal West Nova, NS
Okay, and proactively recommend and suggest perhaps third party help?
NDP
Irene Mathyssen NDP London—Fanshawe, ON
Thank you very much, Mr. Walbourne and Ms. Hynes, for being here.
I'm very grateful for your work. I want to say thank you for your reports. They were met with great enthusiasm by members of this committee. I'm very pleased that you've returned here.
You've said that the time for studies is over. We know that you've done a great deal of work in terms of your reports, and that the veterans ombudsman has also completed a number of reports. All these reports are in the hands of the Minister of National Defence and the Minister of Veterans Affairs. You said you were encouraged by what you heard at this week's meetings, but I wonder, did these ministers or their staff indicate at all when this will actually happen? You've been very clear that there's no reason to keep studying or waiting or waffling. Do you have any sense that they will act decisively and soon?
National Defence and Canadian Forces Ombudsman
I can't speak on behalf of Veterans Affairs, but from what I've heard from the chief of the defence staff and others, I think we can move fairly quickly. But no one has given me a timeline of when this could happen. There are policy reviews that have to be done and structures that have to be thought about and created, if necessary. So it could be a while, but I do believe we've started.
National Defence and Canadian Forces Ombudsman
The will is definitely there.
NDP
Irene Mathyssen NDP London—Fanshawe, ON
That's very encouraging.
In your report you mention that the concept of a seamless transition for Canadian Forces members has been around since 2003, and this is 2016, so a very long time.
Can you comment on what progress has been made in that 13-year interval and what have been the stumbling blocks? What's taken so long?
National Defence and Canadian Forces Ombudsman
I think we're here not from design but just because of circumstance. Each time there's a new theatre of operation, or whatever the military may be doing, we come in and we lay another program in place that brings its own level of bureaucracy. We were dealing with a service delivery model that was created, I think someone suggested, in 1967. All we've done to that is we've digitalized most of it. But we've bolted pieces onto it, over many years, and the system has become very complex.
I don't think it's intentional that we got here; I think it's time and space that's put us here, but I do believe there's a real desire to change it now.
NDP
Irene Mathyssen NDP London—Fanshawe, ON
It's like a morass or a web that's catching people up.
One of the things that has always baffled me is this notion that someone in the Canadian Forces could have medical records and access to a doctor who was very familiar with the situation and could attribute the injuries to service, yet once they're out of the forces and into Veterans Affairs, there has to be this reassessment.
Has VAC ever provided a rationale in regard to why they did this?
National Defence and Canadian Forces Ombudsman
I'm sorry I can't answer that. It would maybe be a good question for the veterans ombudsman.
NDP
Irene Mathyssen NDP London—Fanshawe, ON
All right, I'll do that.
You have three very solid recommendations in this paper. Should we include these in our report at the end of our hearings in this committee?
National Defence and Canadian Forces Ombudsman
As an ombudsman, I'm an evidence-based organization. I have my wishes and desires, but they're secondary to what I find when I go through the evidence. Those recommendations are based on strong evidence that we've received. That evidence is collected from people who are handling these cases, who are living through these cases.
I mentioned 2003, because in my research in trying to find out where the words “seamless transition” came from, the first reference was in a 2003 report.
I'm a firm believer that the recommendations are the right ones. If I had any sway, I would recommend and suggest that they should be in your report.
NDP
Irene Mathyssen NDP London—Fanshawe, ON
Well, evidence is evidence, and since you've done such an exemplary job of finding and looking at that evidence, I think it behooves us to make sure they're included.
On page 5 of your report, you had a statement that has to do with difficult decisions that may be avoided. Here it is: “Some of the decisions...may not be popular...or politically palatable, but they are the right ones for men and women who have served this country.” I was curious about that. Why not popular? Why not palatable?
National Defence and Canadian Forces Ombudsman
Philosophically, I think sometimes we become entrenched in what we know. We become very stubborn sometimes when it comes to change. We have a system that has moved us forward, not at the pace we like, or not as efficiently as we like, but sometimes hanging on to those things is safer than moving into the new.
I think I feel some of that in the environment when I go around and talk to various people and look at the various structures that have been set. That's where that comment comes from.
I do believe we're going to have to knock some rust off the system. Just because we've always done it this way doesn't mean we need to keep doing it this way.
Liberal
Doug Eyolfson Liberal Charleswood—St. James—Assiniboia—Headingley, MB
Again, this is encouraging, in that it sounds like something that doesn't involve a lot of energy and resources. They sound like very straightforward recommendations.
One of the things that was talked about earlier was that if someone is being medically released, they should have everything set up before they go. Now, are you receiving any push-back from the Department of National Defence? For those who are advocates of universality of service, if someone is injured and cannot serve in many capacities, has there been any push-back to your plan in saying that these people have to be retired from the service because they're no longer universal for service?
National Defence and Canadian Forces Ombudsman
There's been absolutely no push-back.
As I said, I'm extremely optimistic today. With the conversations I've heard from the chief of the defence staff and the chief of military personnel command, I don't think there's any resistance.
I do believe, as I said, that there's a real desire inside the department to get this right. I think the chief of the defence staff is going to go after it.
