Veterans Affairs Committee on Oct. 18th, 2016

[Carl Gannon]

One hundred per cent.

[John Brassard, Conservative, Barrie—Innisfil, ON]

Mr. Mac Culloch, I know you've touched on this, and I would imagine Ms. Michaud is probably hearing about it in Valcartier. You're seeing the same thing.

[Wayne Mac Culloch]

Very much.

There's an expectation when a veteran tries to get a benefit or a service that he or she is not going to be the expert, and he or she is going to need some assistance to navigate through the various regulations, directives, and policies. Not only do you not get that from Blue Cross, but you also don't get an explanation. You're left with no one to answer your questions as to why it's not working, and no one to help you make it work.

[John Brassard, Conservative, Barrie—Innisfil, ON]

Another point I want to pick up on, Mr. Gannon, is one that you brought up about educational standards increasing. What have they increased to from where they were?

Perhaps you could just provide a brief response, because I'd like to get Ms. Michaud's opinion on something.

[Carl Gannon]

The case manager has basically gone from a psychology degree or sociology degree to pretty much a master's degree now, at a bare minimum. You cannot be screened in unless you have at least a specialized master's degree, so the requirement has risen to the point where some of our displaced employees will no longer qualify for the job that they were doing before.

[John Brassard, Conservative, Barrie—Innisfil, ON]

Ms. Michaud, you mentioned the 78% with no high school diploma coming through. Do those who are transitioning have active degrees? Do they have degrees that could qualify them to work in Veterans Affairs as part of that transition? Are you seeing that at all?

My point is about veterans helping veterans, because Mr. Gannon spoke about sometimes people within VAC not quite understanding what veterans are going through. Is there an opportunity for us, then, to guide or educate veterans who are transitioning to work in that field to help veterans going forward?

[Marie-Claude Michaud]

You raised an interesting point. However, you need solid experience to do that. The operational stress injury social support group, the OSISS, is made up of supportive peers who already do a great deal. We can't ask these people who were themselves injured to take on this responsibility over the long term, because it is extremely demanding.

As Mr. Gannon said previously during a meeting, the situation can change because of a triggering factor. It can trigger the same thing for the helper, who may have experienced the same situation.

I am not saying that it couldn't be done. If we trained and guided these people, they could perhaps become excellent case managers. We would have to do a lot of coaching and provide guidance to ensure that they did not suffer adverse effects while discharging their mandate. It's an interesting idea.

[The Chair, Liberal, Neil Ellis]

Thank you.

Gop ahead, Ms. Mathyssen.

[Irene Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I want to come back to you, Mr. Gannon.

You talked about the atmosphere at VAC, and the increased bullying and harassment. You've also described for us the dedication of VAC employees and the fact that they're vested in the well-being of the veteran.

One of the things we heard in the course of this study is that very often veterans come in who don't know about parts of their entitlement, and they're not getting that from their case manager or they're not being given the complete picture. Even beyond that, we also heard that employees are told not to provide full information, not to advise the veteran. Have you heard of this? Have your members ever found themselves in this situation?

[Carl Gannon]

Yes, there have been a couple of situations. A couple of directives I heard about that came across my desk were a little difficult for me to read, for me to deal with. They were pretty much of that mantra.

Realistically, it takes time to do a full assessment on a veteran and their family and their situation. That case manager is going to pretty much be out of commission for a bit of time while doing that full assessment. What that basically means is, again, if you are extremely understaffed, that is going to take this case manager out of commission for a day, and unfortunately those are some of the directives that I've heard that have come down.

They weren't full directives. They were more the unwritten type of rules or expectations, I guess, that were being promulgated by some senior-level management.

[Irene Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

That was my next question. Who were the directives from, and how high up were they? Was the motivation to just move things along quickly, save money, and get these people out of there and back on their way?

[Carl Gannon]

Yes, and most of that doesn't necessarily come from your highest echelons of management. We have a bit of a vacuum because of our structural changes. Because everything was nationalized and we have no regional structure anymore, that has left our area directors—our middle managers, basically—in a bit of a power vacuum. They have a little bit too much power, and there are very few checks and balances in the field for that level, so they pretty much have way too much control. They are the ones who are trying to keep certain things under wraps so that they do not get up the line to the individuals who can actually make a difference. It's really tough at times to try to mitigate that, so if I am having a conversation with a DM or somebody, they have no idea of what I'm talking about because this information is not actually filtering its way up as it should.

[Irene Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Okay. Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Neil Ellis]

We're done. I'm sorry. Thank you.

We'll conclude. We can give each group a minute or so to wrap up if you wish. We can start with Mr. Mac Culloch.

[An hon. member]

Chair, did you miss me?

[The Chair, Liberal, Neil Ellis]

I believe you were supposed to split with Mr. Bratina, and he took the whole six minutes. I apologize for that.

[Bob Bratina, Liberal, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

I was waiting for your cue.

[The Chair, Liberal, Neil Ellis]

I guess my cue was when you asked me how much time you had left, and I said “three minutes”.

We'll start with Mr. Mac Culloch.

[Wayne Mac Culloch]

Service delivery needs to further improve. It has started, but we need to keep the momentum going and we need to look at our at-risk groups and try to push out the service delivery to them in a manner that is acceptable to them.

[Marie-Claude Michaud]

The military family resource centres offer a good range of resources everywhere in Canada. This could be very useful to veterans and their families. Do not hesitate to use them.

[Carl Gannon]

The only thing I'd like to say is that the way a country treats its most vulnerable individuals is a shining example of the country. I think we are a better country than we have shown over the last x amount of time in the treatment of our veterans. We stand at a crossroads, and I think that now is the time. We can't wait any longer.

[The Chair, Liberal, Neil Ellis]

Thank you.

On behalf of the committee, I'd like to thank all of you for coming today, and thank your organizations for all of the good you do for our men and women who have served.

If there are any questions you want to elaborate on, feel free to email the clerk with any answers or any clarification to questions, and the clerk will get that to the whole committee.

Again, on behalf of the committee, thanks for coming out today.

I need a motion to adjourn.

[Alaina Lockhart, Liberal, Fundy Royal, NB]

I so move.

(Motion agreed to)

[The Chair, Liberal, Neil Ellis]

The meeting is adjourned.